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  1. Iron Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 3:35pm


     Style: Multiple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys are so adverse to Ninjutsu. I started training Bujinkan and the principles they teach are immediately usable and smart. Its more about tactics and positioning instead of striking like a mad man.

    If you check out Bujinkan, make sure they are legit Bujinkan becuz a lot of guys use that name and are not part of the system. And avoid Ashida Kim, he is a douche.
  2. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 4:02pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Avoid Any Dojo that uses Bujinkan and or Budo Taijutsu, while you're at it.



    PS. Bujinkan Sucks

    PPS. Your mom
  3. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 4:24pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is this the part where I start making empty threats and invitations to come by our dojo? For every sucky Bujinkan dojo there's some Genbukan guy standing outside with a stick up is ass :smile:

    I know the Bujinkan is directly associated with lack of "quality control," but I see it more like a form of Darwinism. As the art evolves, diversification (including miserable failures) is a necessary side effect, but it is still the better for it IMO.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 4:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the kans is recognized by the Kuki family. Need proof? Tanemura's on their website; Hatsumi isn't (Though Hatsumi does teach a legitimate branch of the Kuki arts).
    I don't remember saying anything about Tanemura NOT being recognized. I brought up the issue here and on E-budo about the difference.
    I also brought up the difference in Koto Ryu, Gyokushin and Kukishinden as taught by Uneo Takahashi and Sato Kinbei
    Somehow I doubt it's in Tanemura's best interest to LIE about the connection between Kukishin ryu and Togakure ryu. Especially considering they (The Kuki's and Tanemura) probably both have copies of all of the available scrolls.
    You are ASSUMING that have the same material. But go ahead and email the KTHY about Togakure. I asked before and about other Xkan arts and was given a reply along the lines that Togakure Ryu has nothing to do with Kukishinden.


    I stand by the opinion that ninjutsu contains fighting techniques as well as all the other stuff, and I stand by the opinion (actually it's not an opinion) that ninjutsu is still taught today, regardless of whether or not you define it as fighting. If it's not ninjutsu then what the hell is it? It's all the same stuff other ryu call ninjutsu. Meh.
    Again to clarify the Xkans don't teach ninjutsu. You read the Basenshukai, Ninpiden, and Shorinki, other than ambushing pple with swords how much FIGHTING is done? As far as what it is they are teaching its simple they teach a mix of koppo, koshijutsu, and various weapons kobujutsu, but NOT NINJUTSU.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 4:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Rooster
    You guys are so adverse to Ninjutsu. I started training Bujinkan and the principles they teach are immediately usable and smart. Its more about tactics and positioning instead of striking like a mad man.

    If you check out Bujinkan, make sure they are legit Bujinkan becuz a lot of guys use that name and are not part of the system. And avoid Ashida Kim, he is a douche.
    Ninjutsu is NOT about fighting. THATS THE POINT.

    One of the main reasons the Xkans started using terms like NINPO BUGEI or BUDO TAIJUTSU is becasue for the most part they were NOT teaching ninjutsu.

    Ninjutsu was about ESPIONAGE and tactics not punching and kicking and weapons. Most pple, even members of the various orgs, didn't really know better because they are used to HOLLYWOOD ninjas. Those are the ones you see fighting all the time but that is NOT Ninjutsu. Now Ninjutsu is talked about in the Xkans but talking is not training is it.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 4:49pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    One of the main reasons the Xkans started using terms like NINPO BUGEI or BUDO TAIJUTSU is becasue for the most part they were NOT teaching ninjutsu.
    I changed my style in my profile to Ninpo Bugei to illusturate the point a bit better
  7. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 5:00pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Every Togakure ryu kata I can think of basically involves escaping arrest and sentry removal.... the son tou tonko no kata to be specific. There is material on various hidden weapons like shuko and sanben, tricks of distance+attention... but the combat techniques and postures are merely modifications Gyokko and Koto ryu stuff. There is some unique swordwork and other main weapons like the shoge and yari, but that which isn't geared toward suprise attacks is commonly known as being far inferior to Kukishinden gata (I've never heard of a relationship between those two...?).

    I think its perfectly fair to refer to the application of certain tricks and tools with "conventional" techniques as ninjutsu, as long as you understand where the different elements come from, and acknowledge that you don't have a monopoly on the ideas. I thought the term "ninjutsu" is quite a modern one anyway applied to various things. I'm probably remembering incorrectly, but don't some koryu refer to their shurikenjutsu as ninjutsu?
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 5:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spunky
    I think its perfectly fair to refer to the application of certain tricks and tools with "conventional" techniques as ninjutsu, as long as you understand where the different elements come from, and acknowledge that you don't have a monopoly on the ideas. I thought the term "ninjutsu" is quite a modern one anyway applied to various things.
    Ninjutsu is a fairly modern term but it was used as a blanket term for gathering information, sabotage, spreading misinformation, etc.

    You know what other applicatons of conventional techniques were called? HENKA. (change or variation) You don't take a yari do change a few things and now its ninjutsu. Its different sojutsu/yarijutsu. By your logic different banches of any school would be NINJUTSU. See how that doesn't fit at all? :ninja7:

    I'm probably remembering incorrectly, but don't some koryu refer to their shurikenjutsu as ninjutsu?
    No they don't. Shurikenjutsu was a common MA. Certian styles of shuriken were mainly used by ninjas but many more were used by samurai and layman alike.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. snowcat is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 5:47pm


     Style: Taijutsu, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >I don't remember saying anything about Tanemura NOT being recognized. I brought up the issue here and on E-budo about the difference.<

    You didn't, but someone else did so I was setting it straight.

    >Again to clarify the Xkans don't teach ninjutsu. You read the Basenshukai, Ninpiden, and Shorinki, other than ambushing pple with swords how much FIGHTING is done?<

    I know for a fact that both Hatsumi and Tanemura have taught and still teach many of the things that you see in the above mentioned books.

    What would you call using a kamayari to hook onto a rafter, climbing up it and hanging from the ceiling (or hiding in the rafters). That sure as hell is ninjutsu, and I've seen Tanemura teach that. There's even a clip of him teaching stuff like that on a discovery channel documentary.

    Hatsumi has taught all kinds of crazy assassination techniques. Dick severence has videos out on suiton and katon, and all those are kuden from Hatsumi.

    You say that because togakure ryu isn't officially recognized (or something to that effect) you (or other people) don't really consider it ninjutsu. I consider it ninjutsu from my comparison of its techniques to other ryu with ninjutsu techniques. But whatever.
    Last edited by snowcat; 1/24/2006 5:57pm at .
  10. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/24/2006 6:09pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never trained in the Genbukan or Jinenkan, but from what I've seen and heard, it doesn't seem to be that different from the Bujinkan. The kamae/kata/techniques/whatever all look pretty similar, if not identical.
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...kan_techniques

    From what I can tell, the main difference is that the Genbukan has a syllabus and is much more formal than it's Bujinkan counterpart. It also doesn't seem to place much value in sparring, just like the Bujinkan (note: yes, I am aware that some dojos spar, however they are the vast minority and every xkan shidoshi or shihan I've ever met has said sparring is unnecessary). From the discussion on their message board on the Genbukan and MMA, you get a lot of the classic "too deadly" TMA arguments:
    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...opic_topicID=6
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