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  1. Chris.B is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 11:22am


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In kata we do use footwork and we do reconise how important it is. Kata is the equivelent of your drills when you have nobody to practice on. If you can keep your kata crisp and clean it means you can do each technique in the kata quite well. Kata is more of a reference on how to do techniques. Doing a kata over and over again usually means you get quite good at the moves in it. For example if you had a Punching Kata which always made you really turn your body as you punched. When you're in a real fight and you use a specific technique you've done in a kata a 1000 times chances are you'll pull the technique quite well. Even though kata dosn't teach you how and when to use your techniques it makes each technique cleaner and more effective. Kata is the equiv of Shadow Boxing for boxers.

    Kata is a tool for training just like kumite and sparring. They each focus on helping you improve something. If you never practice technique and you go stright to sparring how good will your technique be compared to someone who has done each move they use 1000 times. But this goes both ways the technique is alomost useless if you never spar since you'll never get a chance to see how it really takes effect in a fight.

    The point is using kata or kumite or even sparring is a personal choice. They all help you improve a part of you fighting game play.
  2. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 11:31am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris.B
    They all help you improve a part of you fighting game play.
  3. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 12:05pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris.B
    In kata we do use footwork and we do reconise how important it is.
    You use pre-defined footwork and timing. This is like saying "in wing chun we recognize the importance of grappling".

    Kata is the equivelent of your drills when you have nobody to practice on.
    What drill are you talking about? Maybe this applies for standing and kicking the air, but my idea of a drill is someone moving around with mitts and spontaneously calling combinations.

    If you can keep your kata crisp and clean it means you can do each technique in the kata quite well. Kata is more of a reference on how to do techniques. Doing a kata over and over again usually means you get quite good at the moves in it. For example if you had a Punching Kata which always made you really turn your body as you punched.
    Doing kata makes you better at doing kata. Because kata does not include spontaneous timing or motion it does not transfer into situations that do.

    When you're in a real fight and you use a specific technique you've done in a kata a 1000 times chances are you'll pull the technique quite well.
    You're applying kata, a non-resisting exercise, to situations where you encounter resistance. This does not work. Your form may look spectacular but you will be missing the ability to properly deliver that technique with any kind of timing, distancing, etc. granted by proper footwork.

    Even though kata dosn't teach you how and when to use your techniques it makes each technique cleaner and more effective.
    "Cleaner" perhaps, in the sense that every relevant part of the body is working in concert with all others. But in the kata you've done that technique from one posture and lead-up motion and it was thrown at one target. When you don't have the same setup and the target moves (as in sparring or even alive drilling) the new factors of motion and timing interfere with that "clean" technique.

    Kata is the equiv of Shadow Boxing for boxers.
    I'll let you in on something: No boxer or kickboxer will tell you shadowboxing has a significant impact on their fighting ability. In a typical kickboxing class I shadowbox as something to do between rounds of skipping; nothing more. Even then, it has motion and timing that do not exist in kata because my instructor does not demand I shadowbox the exact same way every time.


    Kata is a tool for training just like kumite and sparring. They each focus on helping you improve something.
    Specifically, kata training improves kata, kumite training improves kumite, and sparring improves your ability to spar within your ruleset. Of those three only sparring significantly improves your ability to combine footwork, timing and technique. 1-step kumite might be good for drilling but once you go beyond that it becomes a choreographed dance.

    If you never practice technique and you go stright to sparring how good will your technique be compared to someone who has done each move they use 1000 times.
    Where did I say you should never drill techniques? What I do not advocate is doing them 1000 times standing still; do them a few times that way to start up the drill and then start moving around and moving the target.

    But this goes both ways the technique is alomost useless if you never spar since you'll never get a chance to see how it really takes effect in a fight.
    Which is exactly why kata does not teach you how to use techniques under resistance or even with motion and timing. You would be much better served by the above moving target drilling.

    The point is using kata or kumite or even sparring is a personal choice. They all help you improve a part of you fighting game play.
    I agree that they are a personal choice, but they do not all help you learn to fight in equal measure and the disparity is so great as to make kata all but useless.
  4. Chris.B is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 12:17pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I never stated that they help you out in equel messures. I stated that they do help you. I agree with you actual fighting or full contact sparring is by far the most effective out of the 3. Though kata is for technique not timing like you stated. Kumite usually helps you keep your mind clear when you go into a real fight, at least it's dont that for me when you have think clearly while under the pressure of getting hurt. Real good fir starting off like you stated. Kumite is much like a drill. I didn't mean to state that Kata was a drill because it isn't the kumite is more or less the drill part. It gives you great idea's for combos which you can slightly modifiy in fights. Actuall sparring and fighting is where you learn the timeing ect...

    What I'm trying to say in short is that Kata is good for technique that it.
    I'm not saying it helps you with timing or anything. Kata is a tool for learning techniques...simple as that. It has its use...simple as that. Samething with kumite.

    When you actually fight and spar that's when you use everything you learn. That's when you learn you timing ect...
  5. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 12:30pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sparring and full contact are not the only ways to learn timing. There are billions of ways to train and improve TIMING and TECHNIQUE with progressive resistence without reducing it to some retarded robotronic kata or kumite.

    News Flash: You're not Daniel-san, Mr. Miyagi is dead and Cobra Kai is banging your mom.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 1/23/2006 12:40pm at .
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 12:31pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris.B
    I never stated that they help you out in equel messures. I stated that they do help you. I agree with you actual fighting or full contact sparring is by far the most effective out of the 3. Though kata is for technique not timing like you stated. Kumite usually helps you keep your mind clear when you go into a real fight, at least it's dont that for me when you have think clearly while under the pressure of getting hurt. Real good fir starting off like you stated. Kumite is much like a drill. I didn't mean to state that Kata was a drill because it isn't the kumite is more or less the drill part. It gives you great idea's for combos which you can slightly modifiy in fights. Actuall sparring and fighting is where you learn the timeing ect...
    Your comparison to shadowboxing betrays that you don't actually know what I mean by "timing" and "motion".

    What I'm trying to say in short is that Kata is good for technique that it.
    I'm not saying it helps you with timing or anything. Kata is a tool for learning techniques...simple as that. It has its use...simple as that. Samething with kumite.
    What I'm contending is that kata is poor for teaching yo uanything beyond the form of a technique. Everything else must be gain through drilling and sparring, the former of which is capable of teaching you the form equally well.

    When you actually fight and spar that's when you use everything you learn. That's when you learn you timing ect...
    So, how are you supposed to impart these concepts and skills unto the weaklings your previously described? If they're afraid to spar but can't learn fundamentals any other way then they're pretty much stuck. At best they decide to train properly, or at worst they get used to the non-conflict of kata and condition themselves to fear actual resistance even more.
  7. Chris.B is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 12:55pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll talk from personal experiance on this one. For me personally kata really helped me learn my technique. In truth I don't really like kata, I use it only when I'm alone and I have nobody to spar or train with. It in my opinion didn't help me out with timing, it only really made my techniques durring sparring and fights cleaner and more efficient. Kumite was like a drill for me (we also do normal drills on top of this) you practice your moves with an opponant that goes along with what your doing. Like when you first learn a triangle choke ect...you do it over and over again in a drill to get more effecient at it by practicing on someone. This is what kumite has been just with many moves put together oppose to very few. If I just want to improve one technique with someone else I use a drill and if I wish to practice a group of techniques I'd do a kumite.

    The goal of all of this in my opinion is to get your fighting skills up to par in a fight. Kata and kumite are just tools to help you out. I'm not arguing that you need kata or kumite to be a good fighter, I'm just saying it does help.

    I agree getting used to non contact kumite or well anything without a resisting opponent for that matter is bad if it's all you do. Though if you really are terrified of fighting, it still helps to know the science of fighting.
  8. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 12:58pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris.B
    Though if you really are terrified of fighting, it still helps to know the science of fighting.
    Which you don't learn through the kind of exercises you are describing.

    Where do you train BJJ?
  9. Chris.B is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 1:22pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At the moment I'm not at any school and I learn and practice with my friends (these friends train at an actually school so they arn't making this stuff as they go along). Though this summer I plan on heading out to TriStar (Montreal) for full time training (summer only).

    PS:Only reason I'm not currently at the school is due to the distance to the school and here. That with the issue of not having my drivers means I can't go there by car unless someones with me or I use public transportation which is a pain in the ass where I'm located.

    EDIT: My karate training is done at an actually school which shows the importance of ground fighting. Which is why I started to pick up BJJ in the first place.
    Last edited by Chris.B; 1/23/2006 1:25pm at .
  10. wagamichi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/23/2006 1:26pm


     Style: wagamichi shorei kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    3+step kumite is not a realistic stepping stone to actual fighting so it will only waste the beginner's time. Stick them in sparring with a responsible student and appropriately define the level of contact.

    It can be if it is done full contact with no pads to train bodyconditioning. Under these rules the drill hurts, sucks, and makes one tough basterd. then take that pain tollarnce level to the free sparring, walla! tough fighters. It is all how you use the drills. saying "This will teach you to fight" is ****. saying "this will teach you to take a shot, and toughen you up." Ok.
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