A thank you to members of Bullshido

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 1/23/2006 11:50pm

Originally Posted by Reis

Which opens the door to a drive-by by his friends.

So you're assuming that a grappler who also has a knife will automatically and blindly go for a joint-lock/submission instead of using the knife that they have?

I am not disagreeing with you nor Asia and I acutally agreed with alot, if not all, your points. I was simply giving my expirence on the subject. I am only saying I don't like to lose the evasion game to soon. If a lock is there I will take it, but I won't gear the fight to it.

I spend quite a bit of my time do Nihon Ko Ryu Jujutsu, as well playing Judo (under Judo, BJJ and MMA rules) so I am not "teh 4nt1-gr4ppl3". However, I do spend time on sparring with weapons like knife that most of the bullshido-ka don't. Hence I feel my opinion carry a bit of weight. And yes we weapons spar at the Maryland Throwdown.

As for the Ninpo Taijutsu vs. BJJ I am on the BJJ side of this one. Sorry snowcat, I love Ninpo Taijutsu however they way you are presenting it shows a very little knowledge base on the subject. It is true that most of what is taught as Ninpo Taijutsu today is really just Japanese Jujutsu arts (Jujutsu as an umbrella term for Taijutsu in general), that include "ground fighting". However, you mention Shinden Fudo Ryu, Well all Shinden Fudo Ryu ground fighting is the Tori is in Fudo Za no Kamae ( a seated position) and the Uke attacks with a strike (with and without a sword), there is usally a strike and a roll away. That is more for, you are seated at whereever and someone attacks you. That is not the same as Judo/BJJ ground fighting. I can go on about how BJJ isn't the all end in Martial Arts like the Nuters say, but at least they are knowledge on their subject matter and make solid points. Your posts make my cry.

TekkaMaki,
As I said I started in Ninpo Taijutsu left for BJJ and ended up back in Ninpo Taijutsu. However, I did enjoy my stay in BJJ, learned a lot of things. I did take the "training alive" of BJJ back to my Ninpo Taijutsu training, that has increased my ability in applying it. Personally, I think you are just jumping on the bandwagon, but you got to make you own decisions.

**Thaiboxerken** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 12:09am

I train in FMA as well as BJJ, I think that it's better to either be grappling with a knife wielding opponent or out of their range. Being anywhere between those ranges is bad.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 12:27am

Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken

I train in FMA as well as BJJ, I think that it's better to either be grappling with a knife wielding opponent or out of their range. Being anywhere between those ranges is bad.

Sound advice. The the evasion game I am describing is just outside their range, so if they attack you have the advantage of a a bit stretched attack and can use a counter cut (blocking with a strike).

**VikingPower** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 9:47am

Originally Posted by Thaiboxerken

I train in FMA as well as BJJ, I think that it's better to either be grappling with a knife wielding opponent or out of their range. Being anywhere between those ranges is bad.

What, no spinning roundhouse kicks to disarm the opponent? :gwbdance:

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 12:08pm

Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu

What, no spinning roundhouse kicks to disarm the opponent? :gwbdance:

You can only do that after an X block. Kiai!!!!!

**snowcat** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 2:52pm

Why does it matter if they're in fudoza or not? Don't treat me like I'm stupid buddy, I know about shindenfudo ryu. Knock it off with the fratricide, I'm on your side.

Just because some of the kata are starting in fudoza makes jack **** difference. Stick your legs out in front of you on the ground and have someone come in and try to take you BJJ style. All the moves are already in there. It's up to you to train it.

There's some more ground fighting in takagi ryu also. If I remember correctly there's even several kinds of escapes from what you could call the guard and side mounts in shindenfudo ryu. I think you can even see them on Hatsumi's old shindenfudo video. Nothing's stopping you from exploring the ryu yourself. If you want to limit yourself to kata training in the genbukan well then, fine.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 2:57pm

Originally Posted by snowcat

Just because some of the kata are starting in fudoza makes jack **** difference. Stick your legs out in front of you on the ground and have someone come in and try to take you BJJ style. All the moves are already in there. There's some more in takagi ryu also. If I remember correctly there's even several kinds of escapes from what you could call the guard and side mounts in shindenfudo ryu. I think you can even see them on Hatsumi's old shindenfudo video. Nothing's stopping you from exploring the ryu yourself.

That's great and all, but training in fudoza is not the way to train against someone for groundfighting. It's the way to train to fight against someone while you're sitting in fudoza. That's what those techniques are there for. It may look like a side mount or a guard, but unless you are using them in randori as that, all the equivalences in the world won't make a difference.

Is there some technical overlay? Yes. You can punch someone standing up. You can punch someone on the ground. However, unless you're activily training one, it's not going to be as good as the other.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 3:41pm

Originally Posted by snowcat

Why does it matter if they're in fudoza or not? Don't treat me like I'm stupid buddy, I know about shindenfudo ryu. Knock it off with the fratricide, I'm on your side.

Just because some of the kata are starting in fudoza makes jack **** difference. Stick your legs out in front of you on the ground and have someone come in and try to take you BJJ style. All the moves are already in there. It's up to you to train it.

There's some more ground fighting in takagi ryu also. If I remember correctly there's even several kinds of escapes from what you could call the guard and side mounts in shindenfudo ryu. I think you can even see them on Hatsumi's old shindenfudo video. Nothing's stopping you from exploring the ryu yourself. If you want to limit yourself to kata training in the genbukan well then, fine.

Snow Cat NinpoTaijutsu ground fighting and the modern Judo/BJJ ground fighting is very different.

NinpoTaijutsu "ground fighting" is more being seated and someone running or sneaking up to attack you. It usually (especially in Shinden Fudo Ryu DakenTaijutsu Chi No Kata) involves an evasion, a strike and getting the **** to your feet.

Though the Takagi Yoshin Ryu stuff has grappling that resembles Judo. There are knee bars, choke, mount, etc. However, that isn't NinpoTaijutsu, that Ko Ryu Jujutsu (or Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei is Tanemura's Org).

**snowcat** · Posted On: 1/24/2006 4:12pm

Originally Posted by KageKaze

Snow Cat NinpoTaijutsu ground fighting and the modern Judo/BJJ ground fighting is very different.

NinpoTaijutsu "ground fighting" is more being seated and someone running or sneaking up to attack you. It usually (especially in Shinden Fudo Ryu DakenTaijutsu Chi No Kata) involves an evasion, a strike and getting the **** to your feet.

Though the Takagi Yoshin Ryu stuff has grappling that resembles Judo. There are knee bars, choke, mount, etc. However, that isn't NinpoTaijutsu, that Ko Ryu Jujutsu (or Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei is Tanemura's Org).

I never mentioned anything about either one being jujutsu or taijutsu, and in any case they're both the same thing, I'm sure you already know takagi ryu was originally called jutaijutsu, the same as shindenfudo ryu.

The principles are all there, if you want to train them to work against a judoka or a bjj'ist then they work against those martial arts. Don't just take my word for it.

I have used principles from both ryu in my judo newaza sparring and it works just fine. Often times it works better than the standard judo newaza I know because there is pain inflicted in the performing of the technique or the movement puts them in a position where they cannot breathe. I'm pretty heavy so that helps too.

In my mind I do not see the difference between sitting on the balls of your feet or sitting on your ass or lying on your back or being turtled up. If you train properly in a sparring environment and you know the kinds of moves BJJ people like to do, it's already there. Yes it is important to know what a BJJ guy is going to do. That makes it worth studying for a while. But the responses to the stuff you see in BJJ are already in judo and jujutsu. All the moves came from the same source, BJJ wasn't just created in an isolated environment in Brazil. Judo came from jujutsu, BJJ came from judo, and as students in the genbukan we happen to have 2 systems that happen to deal a lot with opponents on the ground.

Train your jujutsu to beat a bjj guy and you will. There's nothing magical about regular jujutsu or brazilian jujutsu. Just different ways of using jujutsu.