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  1. MuKen is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:02pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    Those takedowns were NOT originally part of BJJ, IMO, and so for BJJers to take credit for every important innovation in grappling history bugs me.
    I'm pretty sure there isn't anybody anywhere claiming that credit for taking people down should go to BJJ. In fact, given that Joe Rogan is a friend of Eddie Bravo, I'm willing to bet that he'd agree with you that BJJ has and should continue to take influence from wrestling.
  2. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:07pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Dreadnaught,

    Yes and there are other top fighters in the world making fools of those guard pulling biatches. I've already named a bunch of them. Why go on. Are you even a Brazillian Ju Jitsu student? It just says "Jujitsu" in your style field.

    I don't know why you guys are so sensative. I haven't even presented an argument against it on it's usefullness. Just my taste dude. For every guard fighter you can point to I can point to 2 more MMA pros who don't work it much. BJJ is not dominating MMA anymore. Get over it.

    Favorite 2 fighters of mine for the past year or so now:

    Crocop
    Fedor

    In that order. . . . ****, I almost forgot Sakuraba. He gets bonus points for making Royce look so silly but there's nothing there for me to emulate so I'll stick with the two above for my internal MMA role models.

    So when did it become a crime against nature to prefer their styles over Minotauro or Royce? You and Mukan or whatever are worse than Joe Rogan.
    You are not a grappler so having stylistic preferences for grappling is absurd.

    Now, with that out of the way:
    1) CroCop does BJJ under Fabricio Werdum. When he tripped against Josh Barnett he went to the guard and Barnett submitted himself (and in doing so afforded me centuries of jokes about both himself and catchwrestling). This is the point where your intellectual cartoon Wile E. Coyote has run off the cliff and you're just refusing to look down.

    2) Fedor is one exceptional man. The exception does not make the rule. It is also fallacious to drag him into an argument debating grappling styles since striking is a huge part of his success against elite grapplers. That would be like me advocating BJJ fighting from the bottom because Ivan Salaverry and Joe Doerkson have used effective up-kicks.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 1/20/2006 11:11pm at .
  3. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:09pm

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm pretty sure there isn't anybody anywhere claiming that credit for taking people down should go to BJJ.
    But why, then, do people think BJJ is a system of grappling that doesn't require crosstraining? Why do people train to suck at takedowns and base?

    In fact, given that Joe Rogan is a friend of Eddie Bravo, I'm willing to bet that he'd agree with you that BJJ has and should continue to take influence from wrestling.
    I don't really care about Joe Rogan, I mean, what he said did not offend me, and to me, he isn't the motivation for saying what I've said on this thread. I know Joe isn't a douchebag when it comes to giving credit.
  4. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MuKen
    You accused me of using an "ad hominem". For that to be true, you would have to be claiming that you have a meaningful argument for me to evade. Are you one of those people that likes to toss fancy debate terms around without knowing what they mean?
    You attempted to invalidate my opinion that BJJ is a bitch style compared to Sambo by saying I was just ignorant and inexperienced and really couldn't tell what BJJ people were doing.

    So are we abandoning the actual discussion here? Not everyone in the BJJ world pulls guard all the time, that's my point. Speaking of evading the point...
    This is such a nothing point that it doesn't need rebuffing. It's like pointing out that Muay Thai fighters can throw punches too.


    btw, Sean,

    Nothing tactically. You probably haven't followed our little "argument" from the beggining. The thread started as an excuse for Omega to rant about Joe Rogan and his BJJ nutriding antics. It has (de)volved into a discussion about the similarities between BJJ and the sex industry in Thailand.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  5. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:16pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    But why, then, do people think BJJ is a system of grappling that doesn't require crosstraining? Why do people train to suck at takedowns and base?
    The stance most often seen in BJJ gi grappling is a hunched-over, based stance. Base is the first part of all my self-defence drills (most of which have come straight from Helio) because it prevents you from being taken down or pulled off-balance. In the month leading up to a tournament I take special time to drill my favorite forward throws, backward throws and leg takedowns and I still get beaten by guys with better takedowns.
  6. MuKen is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:16pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    But why, then, do people think BJJ is a system of grappling that doesn't require crosstraining? Why do people train to suck at takedowns and base?
    Some people think that because they are delusional. However, I am still sure that even those people, even the Gracies themselves, are well aware that they didn't invent everything that has to do with grappling.

    I pretty much agree with you there, and think the fact that BJJ is in fact taking stuff from wrestling and other arts is an admission that it is not the be-all and end-all of grappling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    You attempted to invalidate my opinion that BJJ is a bitch style compared to Sambo by saying I was just ignorant and inexperienced and really couldn't tell what BJJ people were doing.
    Actually, that wasn't my point at all. This goes back to your not actually reading the entirety of what I wrote...

    Furthermore, you're still avoiding the fact that YOU were the one claiming you had an "argument", not just an opinion, by saying I was using an ad hominem.

    This is such a nothing point that it doesn't need rebuffing. It's like pointing out that Muay Thai fighters can throw punches too.
    Ehm, how so? You are saying that pulling guard is gay, therefore BJJ is gay. I am saying that pulling guard is only a strategy of some BJJ practitioners and is not the focus of the art. I should think that if you ignore this point, you might as well just STFU completely.
    Last edited by MuKen; 1/20/2006 11:20pm at .
  7. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:25pm

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     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To say that BJJ is gay is pretty much a weak inflamitory unsubstantiated argument. The BJJ wonder family did help push MMA into mainstream and actually help everyones ground game. I don't really dig the mindset of the Gracies but if someone else does, thats fine.

    BJJ's flaws as I see it are that in a lot of places, stand up skills are neglected. I see that 100% of fights that I have been in, start from standing and that fact is not sufficiently addressed in many of the schools I have seen.

    BJJ does spend a lot of its time on the ground and by virtue of experience and repeatition, it is superior there in a lot of ways. To say that it is unbeatable is what uneducated nutriders say. To argue that it is gay, is what uneducated anti-riders use to avoid the truth.

    The truth is that Judo, Sambo, BJJ, SubGrappling can all be good if the time is spent doing good hard training, but with a finite amount of time there has to be a balance in the work put in on standing and ground.

    I personally think that the guard is overrated and probably many BJJist think the same way, its just one position among many.
  8. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    I personally think that the guard is overrated and probably many BJJist think the same way, its just one position among many.
    It is the one all others lack.
  9. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:28pm

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     Style: na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    It is the one all others lack.

    Actually, guard is in Judo as well, it is just not referred to as a position. Kyuzo Mifune had a lot of techniques using the guard as a position.

    Look at the Canon of Judo.
  10. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/20/2006 11:31pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    Actually, guard is in Judo as well, it is just not referred to as a position. Kyuzo Mifune had a lot of techniques using the guard as a position.
    It is "in" everything spawned from JJJ I'm sure. But no other art uses it to such great effect and one man having a series of isolated techniques related to it does not change this.

    Then there are modern Judo rules but I'm not going through that debate here.
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