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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2006 9:45pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    I learned the pendulum sweep off a video on the Internet and used it in class with a 100% success rate today after taking some of my own time to drill it last week. It was never shown to me in class. People who train in alive systems do this all the time.
    But you know that you wouldn't learn boxing from books very effectively, right ?

    I am not arguing against instruction. I am arguing against wasting your time hunting for bits of gold in a pile of ****.
    I pointed out earlier that it might be worth while if, and only if, you felt that you needed a new trick to give you that something extra. If people do it purely out of curiosity, then they aren't being irrational. If people do because they are extremely highly trained in their 'fundamentals' and want extra tricks, then they might get something from it.

    In either case, real instruction would be more efficient than books.
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  2. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2006 9:52pm

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     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Studying dead styles can serve the same purpose as exploring the wreck of the Titanic: it's interesting and all to see the extravegant construction, but in the end it only serves to illustrate how horribly the best of intentions can fail.
  3. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/14/2006 9:54pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    But you know that you wouldn't learn boxing from books very effectively, right ?

    I pointed out earlier that it might be worth while if, and only if, you felt that you needed a new trick to give you that something extra. If people do it purely out of curiosity, then they aren't being irrational. If people do because they are extremely highly trained in their 'fundamentals' and want extra tricks, then they might get something from it.

    In either case, real instruction would be more efficient than books.
    Do you even remember what your point was when this thread started?

    What everyone should take away from this thread is that techniques from dead arts disintegrate under the Light of Emperor Helio, and that incorporating gimmicks from dead arts should stop at hogtying a white belt with your blue belt and having a good laugh.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 1/14/2006 11:00pm at .
  4. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2006 11:46pm


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To Aesopian:
    Yes; but if someone looked at the Titanic then rebuilt a new ship based upon it; mixing it up with the designs of ther ships; it would be good woudn't it?

    I mean look at muay thai: It abandoned it's original punching methods and uses some american boxing in it.
    Essentially; muay thai isnt really ''pure'' but now look at it; it's one of the best stand up fighting arts in the world.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 12:24am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AAAhmed46
    To Aesopian:
    Yes; but if someone looked at the Titanic then rebuilt a new ship based upon it; mixing it up with the designs of ther ships; it would be good woudn't it?
    No. That is called learning from a mistake. They wouldn't take the metal from that old ass ship and use it to build newer ships. That is what you are doing when you use dead arts. They are usually dead for a reason, they didn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by AAAhmed46
    I mean look at muay thai: It abandoned it's original punching methods and uses some american boxing in it.
    Essentially; muay thai isnt really ''pure'' but now look at it; it's one of the best stand up fighting arts in the world.
    No, you are using an improper analogy. MT existed then used a mordern form of fighting (boxing) and made their art better.

    MT didn't go backwards and say "Hey lets do Tai Chi Sword" and then became a respected art.
  6. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 1:10am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "But isn't it possible that by getting AIDS, you increasing your midiclorine count and come that much closer to becoming a Jedi?"

    I'll drop the analogies since you're going to just keep trying to stretch them in dumb ways. I'll just give you the direct version: It's a waste of time to try to raise these dead arts from their graves.

    That's a very cruel thing for me to say. But considering how little time we all have to train in REAL training, I don't see why any of us should waste it trying to deconstruct and reassemble a dead art, especially considering that there are plenty of alive ones that have already developed functional skills in all ranges.

    Maybe someone with a solid base in a realistic art could take some pieces from dead material and make it work, but that's just a passing amusement. Unless you just enjoying wasting time and are dead set on sticking to some image (What Would Osensei Do?), the argument that you can take a dead art and turn it inside out makes as much sense as trying to LARP with aliveness.

    I guess the idea is that these dead arts somehow contain secret FORBIDDEN KNOWEDGE that is not known in the realm of alive training, and only years of diligently punching the makiwara (WITH ALIVENESS!) and drawing diagrams of balls with axises and arrows spinning around them and saying "Our art is unique because it is based on using your attacker's strength against him" like it's a new and original concept, that Bruce Lee will come to you in a vision and give you a Black Belt +1 to show off at the next Throwdown in between tanto tag rounds.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 1/15/2006 9:30pm at .
  7. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 1:16am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do enjoy the idea of someone putting in all the time and effort to solve the problems with aikido, only to realize he's just recreated judo for no reason.
  8. AAAhmed46 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 2:00am


     Style: karate,MMA(between gyms)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    """""""""""No, you are using an improper analogy. MT existed then used a mordern form of fighting (boxing) and made their art better.

    MT didn't go backwards and say "Hey lets do Tai Chi Sword" and then became a respected art."""""""""


    How is what muay thai did different from what im talking about?
    What im talking about is not integrating tai chi swords; it's taking BJJ or Judo background to know what crap is and what isnt crap.


    But Aesopian is probably right about judo being re-created by someone 'fixing' aikido.
  9. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 2:30am

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     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Just like Aikido would be if you blended it with BJJ: a gimmick.
    Sir, if you are attacking gimmicks, i'm going to be forced to pout and look petulant.

    Now, i'm going to raise a lot of the same points Cullion did, minus the patronizing imperialistic analogy involving shamans.

    If you have a delivery system from a legitimate combat sport (NOT AIKIDO OR TAICHI), you can start incorporating whatever kind of goofy wrist locks you want. Aeso has started several threads on exactly that.

    If you don't have a delivery system, all your studies will be one big LARP.


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  10. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 4:22pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    Maybe you shouldn't post onan empty stomach.

    If say someone with 15 years of BJJ experience looks at Aikido and wanted to change it.He would have top start fresh as a new student.Meaning take everything he is learning in Aikido and decide as he's progressing what is lacking what can be useful.Since it takes 8 to 10 years to be awarded a BB in Aikido.I would say it will be that long before the ex-BJJ student can fine tune Aikido and make it modern.
    I think it would be the other way around an Aikido student takes up a combat sport and see how to train and what can and cannot work and then overhauls his art.

    That is what I am doing with my version of Budo Taijutsu.
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