Repairing styles....

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:24pm

Originally Posted by AAAhmed46

But what if your not training to become a better fighter? What if your training to fix something thats broken?

Obviously the only way to do this is to already know something thats good(ie jujlutsu or MMA)

If someone DOES waste thier time and fix this style up; for all we know in 20 years down the road, someone may benefit from cross training in it if you have your own non-bullshido branch of aikido?

Bullsido;Aikido;Bullshido;aidkido.

It ryhmes!

I guess it's no stupider than collecting bottle caps

**Cullion** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:29pm

Or spending hours of your week training in unarmed combat when you aren't a cop or a bouncer and live somewhere that allows you to carry mace and/or a concealed handgun.

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:29pm

Originally Posted by AAAhmed46

But what if your not training to become a better fighter? What if your training to fix something thats broken?

Obviously the only way to do this is to already know something thats good(ie jujlutsu or MMA)

If someone DOES waste thier time and fix this style up; for all we know in 20 years down the road, someone may benefit from cross training in it if you have your own non-bullshido branch of aikido?

Bullsido;Aikido;Bullshido;aidkido.

It ryhmes!

I love it when people martyr themselves for useless reasons. You need to learn that the majority of individuals are insignificant against institutions.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:30pm

It's only useless if it's not fun.

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:33pm

Originally Posted by Cullion

It's only useless if it's not fun.

If your idea of fun is bailing water out of a sinking ship, go ahead. Just don't pretend you're involved for any other reason than your stubborn asiaphilia.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:37pm

If you train martial arts for pure, utilitarian 'combat efficiency' and you live somewhere where you're allowed to carry a weapon, devoting a lot of time to any form of unarmed training is.... illogical.

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:42pm

Originally Posted by Cullion

If you train martial arts for pure, utilitarian 'combat efficiency' and you live somewhere where you're allowed to carry a weapon, devoting a lot of time to any form of unarmed training is.... illogical.

So there should be no gap between useless unarmed styles and lethal force?

**Cullion** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 4:50pm

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

So there should be no gap between useless unarmed styles and lethal force?

Mace and tasers aren't lethal. Anyway, the point is that if somebody decides to try and resurrect aikido with 'aliveness' just because they think it's cool and you might get some interesting tricks out of it, then it's not a waste of their time. Taking up aikido because you think you will rule over all in a sub-grappling tournament would be plain delusional, but that's not the same thing.

I refer you back to the car analogies earlier. I bet you aren't training BJJ purely for self-defence, are you ?

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 5:01pm

Originally Posted by Cullion

Mace and tasers aren't lethal.

But they're superceded by guns and knives in their respective ranges, so by your logic (weapons supercede unarmed techniques) they are a waste.

Anyway, the point is that if somebody decides to try and resurrect aikido with 'aliveness' just because they think it's cool and you might get some interesting tricks out of it, then it's not a waste of their time. Taking up aikido because you think you will rule over all in a sub-grappling tournament would be plain delusional, but that's not the same thing.

I can't see how you make the previous argument that unarmed training is pointless if you can carry a weapon but don't think that archaic, ineffective styles are a waste of time when you have better ones available.

I refer you back to the car analogies earlier. I bet you aren't training BJJ purely for self-defence, are you ?

I don't train purely for self-defence but it's a large component of my training and I practice for it every class. People who willingly train in styles they know are inferior are merely using a martial pretence to hide their love of tea ceremonies.

To the point: I did karate for a number of years, but when the binary choice arose to train in kickboxing with professional fighters I didn't stick with traditional karate because I liked wearing a gi or any of the other potential silly reasons. Also, I refer you to everyone who has had some kind of training epiphany just by leaving wing chun.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 1/14/2006 5:13pm

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

But they're superceded by guns and knives in their respective ranges, so by your logic (weapons supercede unarmed techniques) they are a waste.

Not really, because you were talking about the distinction between lethal and non-lethal. I think you get more bang for your buck from a can of mace or a taser than from hours of unarmed MA training if you're talking in pure utilitarian terms.

Of course, that's not to say I think unarmed MA is a waste of time. A lot of people do it just because they like fighting (whether that be standup, wrestling, grappling on the floor, whatever). That's why I do it. I'm just pointing out that as long as somebody isn't deluded about the value of what they're doing in a particular situation, there's no harm in doing it for fun. The original poster was talking about 'not just about being a more effective fighter', but trying to get something workable out of aikido by training it with 'aliveness' as a kind of restoration project. As long as that's all he sees it as, I say more power to him.

I don't train purely for self-defence but it's a large motivating factor. People who willingly train in styles they know are inferior are merely using a martial pretence to hide their love of tea ceremonies.

It depends why they say they are interested in them. If somebody does aikido and says 'well, I know it won't work nearly as well as BJJ, but I want to try and get something workable from it by using simillar training methods, just because I'm curious', then I don't think they're delusional. It's the people who say 'I have a shodan in Aikido, fool, and if you think that MMA **** will take me to the floor then you obviously don't understand ki' who are delusional. The original poster seems to be in the former camp to me.

To the point: I did karate for a number of years, but when the binary choice arose to train in kickboxing with professional fighters I didn't stick with traditional karate because I liked wearing a gi or any of the other potential silly reasons.
Also, I refer you to everyone who has had some kind of training epiphany just by leaving wing chun.

I left Wing Chun to train at a place that puts up San Shou competitors. I understand exactly what you're talking about (read my training log to see accounts). I just don't think that people with a level head about what the given effects of a training in a particular MA are wasting their time if they know it's not 'most efficient' and are just doing it as a kind of historical research hobby with an outside chance of finding a few interesting little tricks.