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  1. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 8:42am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think you're mistaken. I don't have kids or do kuk sool won.
  2. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 9:31am

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is not Kool Sook Kwon, notice the lack of oversized pink fans.
  3. El-Wood is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 9:40am


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    No never!I actully have never heard of anyone telling someone that they can fight in that stance.

    Now I'm curious.Has anyone been told by their old trainers that a traditional stance is effective in a modern fight.

    The way zenkutsu-dachi has been explained to me is that is the closest thing to a stance you will be in when you close distance. You push off your back leg and move your front leg out keeping your center of gravity (hopefully) centered. The reason we practice so many damned combinations and techniques from it is that is one of the times when you are most open to getting the crap knocked out of you...

    But hell - that might just be bullshido... And yeah if I got into that stance during sparing the chance I would have is to kick 'em in the nuts while they were incapacitated laughing...
  4. El-Wood is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 9:42am


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think people are missing one very important point. The point is not to try to figure out what if any practical use any of these stances might have. The point is to make fun of how stupid the people doing them look!
  5. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 10:21am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!


  6. wagamichi is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 10:49am


     Style: wagamichi shorei kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Liar liar pants on fire!



  7. gangrelchilde is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 11:05am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there are two problems:

    1. *some* of the people making fun of these stances have no clue how to use them or what they are for. It's very easy to make fun of some of these stances when they look funny but you've never applied them. But that's a small part of the problem, really. The bigger problem is...

    2. The people who are letting these pics be taken, posting them on their webpage for all the owrld to see, and not explaining them, are drawing on the typical Western interest in the "mystical Chinese arts". :qleft4: A lot of the stances I'm seeing from the Chinese arts are, as has been pointed out, "transition stances". Would I, for example, get into a low bow drawn stance in a fight or during sparring? No, that's posing. Have I applied the bow drawn stance during sparring, yes. Have I stayed there looking like a Power Ranger after executing the movement, no! These practitioners need to explain some of these stances on their websites. If they have the brains enough to create a website, and enough bandwith to post a lot of pics, then put some text with the picture. For example, Virus' 4Am post shows some bowing in and a few strength and timing drills. I have to wonder if the instructor jumping around and getting into the funky stances has any text explaining those stances? Probably not. And that is a huge problem with TCMA.
  8. The Limey is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 5:56pm


     Style: Ex-TMA/KB Noob/Judo Noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wagamichi
    For what it is worth, in the early 1990’s I trained a lot with Kiyoshi Nishime, a Yammani ryu and Shorin ryu master from Okinawa. During a seminar he shed a lot of light (although unpopular with the American masters) on Karate and its application.

    Here are some of the highlights of a question and answer session he held with those present.

    On stances: He said that the stances were not to be “used” as practiced in the Kata. The zenkutsu dachi may only manifest for a spit second during a punch. When he moved demonstrating fighting techniques, he looked more Muay Thai in his stance and postures. “Then why do the stances?” he was asked. He said that many of the stances are in reality a type of training drill to develop certain muscle groups to perform certain movements.

    Well, as you can guess this did not go over well with the Indiana Karotty Masters that did their “self-defense” training like a bunch of robots stomping around in Zenkutsu and Kiba dachies.

    So then the question of “proper chambering” for punches came up. Like most North American Karotty “fighters” all present did the classic block while chambering and then punch. Sensei waved his hands and said “If you fight like that, you gonna get hit in face!” “What?” One of the 4th degree black belts said. “You have to chamber to get the power right?” On that point Sensei frowned. He said that the chambering of punches is a teaching aid used for beginners to teach people to keep their elbows in and their ribs protected. He said you fight with your hand up. You punch from where your hand is.

    Again, this was met with disbelief. Everyone knows that you do a middle block, chamber, and punch from a good rib high chamber! He went on to say that the “middle-block, high block, and low block as done in kata were more drills teaching arms in. He said “those blocks are not real blocks and do not work in a fight at real speed.

    At this point, an angry mob was developing. Years of Karotty training was being dismissed or “revealed” as incorrect. One of the men, a “Renshi” actually asked if He (Nishime) was really from Okinawa.

    Sensei became very…crappy. And for once the truth shown in Indiana about karate.

    He said: There were three types of karate in Okinawa. Peasant arts, warrior arts, and scholar arts. He made reference to the fact that what they were doing was the peasant arts. These were the conscripts used for war that were taught basics of fighting and sent on their way. These arts and the men that used them developed them into Ryu, but that they were limited in their application. “This is what you do.” He said. This is what the marines learned and what was brought back to the states after the war. He also said this is what Funikoshi took to Japan and what was taught in the Public Schools.

    The warrior arts were the Ryu used by the professional soldiers and bodyguards. Yammani Ryu was the Kings Bodyguards art. He said this was more functional in the field as far as fighting went. This was what he was trying to teach.

    Watching him run a kata was not like watching the Americans do their best competition kata. As an example, I am sure all of you that have been to a tournament have heard the infamous “osa” and “hiss” done on every punch, block, or kick. Well that was wrong too. He said “don’t do that! You let the enemy know when you are breathing, and when you are breathing in. Breath naturally.” He said.

    All the stances of karate are in his kata. And it is fun to make fun of them in Karotty. But in real fighting, you don’t “see” them. You just move hit and kick.

    He said more but I forget or really it just does not matter. Stance training is not a waste of time if you understand the reality of the training. Kind of like mat crawls in Jujitsu. You don’t mat crawl across the floor when you roll, but you will use that motion when you are grappling.

    Assuming all this is correct, do the Japanese train in these stances the way we do? And if so why?

    If the Japanese train like the guy in wagamichi's story then how come that lost knowledge has not yet found it's way into main stream western martial arts?

    And finally, does anyone have any experiences with traditional karate teachers who tell them the same things as the guy in wagamichi's story?
  9. Odacon is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 6:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bits and pieces

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wagamichi
    Liar liar pants on fire!



    Smokey ninja fun! Where do I sign up!
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2006 6:41pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Limey
    Assuming all this is correct, do the Japanese train in these stances the way we do? And if so why?
    Mainly because karate was Japanized and further Koreanized as the art transitioned to those locations from Okinawa.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Limey
    If the Japanese train like the guy in wagamichi's story then how come that lost knowledge has not yet found it's way into main stream western martial arts?
    The close door system. Idiots getting in charge...there are billion and one reasons...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Limey
    And finally, does anyone have any experiences with traditional karate teachers who tell them the same things as the guy in wagamichi's story?
    Yes.
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