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  1. vladoshi is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 6:58am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is BJJ the original judo?

    Talking to some BJJ addicts, they said BJJ is judo before it was modified for faster bouts at the Olympics. Can anybody add to this?
  2. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 8:50am


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, they're wrong.
  3. Memnoch1207 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 8:54am


     Style: Boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin
    Yes, they're wrong.
    Ditto
  4. Aesopian is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 8:56am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Aesopian.com 

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You should have registered as "viadoshi".
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 9:18am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And the ignorant should answer. All three of you are fucktards. The original set that was taught to the Gracie Family was taught by old school Judo standards. Most of these techniques empahsized as much ground work as it did throwing. Two schools of thought branched out from this most notably the influence Helio Gracie brought in because of his lack of sheer size and strength. So you'll see two different mind sets of BJJ although they've influenced each other. The Gracie brand which was spawned by Carlos Gracie and the Gracie brand that was influenced most notably by Helio Gracie. These days they're almost indestinguishable (spell check please) because of all the information available out there and all the cross training going on between the different systems.

    This is what some people would like to express as "BJJ is just pre WWII Judo" where you saw more ground fighting etc. Many sport JJJ systems often display an extreme BJJ look although not as passive and this is sometimes is contributed to Kano's influence in JJJ which was later coined as Judo.

    As you can see most BJJ guys take insult to this. Since my information was from a more direct source the the rest of you can sit and spin, I'll believe a Machado Black Belt over the three of you any day of the week.

    *edit.... oops didn't mean to include you in that branch Aesop.
  6. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 9:44am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by vladoshi
    Talking to some BJJ addicts, they said BJJ is judo before it was modified for faster bouts at the Olympics. Can anybody add to this?
    They are right. At its inception BJJ was "Old school" Judo and some Tenshin Shinyo Ryu JJ. Honestly it was incompete Judo and TSR but thats not necesarily a bad thing over the years BJJ has morphed into its own animal and stands on its own merits.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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  7. dramaboy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 9:46am


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the ippon (win by a clean throw) was there from day one in judo.
    I don't think there ever was ippon in BJJ.
    And that dictates a different approach, different philosophy and different techs.

    Anyway it is a silly comparison, particularly since BJJ today is not what it was 10, 20, 50 years ago.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  8. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 9:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omega
    And the ignorant should answer.
    Ironic

    Quote Originally Posted by omega
    All three of you are fucktards. The original set that was taught to the Gracie Family was taught by old school Judo standards. Most of these techniques empahsized as much ground work as it did throwing.Two schools of thought branched out from this most notably the influence Helio Gracie brought in because of his lack of sheer size and strength. So you'll see two different mind sets of BJJ although they've influenced each other. The Gracie brand which was spawned by Carlos Gracie and the Gracie brand that was influenced most notably by Helio Gracie. These days they're almost indestinguishable (spell check please) because of all the information available out there and all the cross training going on between the different systems.

    This is what some people would like to express as "BJJ is just pre WWII Judo" where you saw more ground fighting etc. Many sport JJJ systems often display an extreme BJJ look although not as passive and this is sometimes is contributed to Kano's influence in JJJ which was later coined as Judo.
    Not really. I say this based on multiple pre-war judo references on my shelf (I can give you the citations). In those books, some that address the teaching methods of the Kodokan, throwing is primary. Nage-no-kata and the Gokyo are the basis of teaching; the Katame-no-kata comes later.

    What I've seen of BJJ appears to be based almost entirely on Katame-no-kata and related techinques. The other "sets" have been dropped.

    Now, you could be correct in saying that the original set emphasized as much ground work as throwing - the Randori-no-kata (the popular name for Nage-no-kata and Katame-no-kata combined) includes 15 throws and 15 ne-waza.

    But Katame includes all the key matwork techniques, while Nage consists of mostly forward throws (that is, uke goes forward - yoko-gake, uke falls backward, and sideways in okuri-ashi-barai) - the Gokyo greatly expands on these basics, not so much on the ne-waza. (Note that I tend use the term Gokyo to cover named techniques not covered in kata, not a precise usage, but one that suits my purposes).

    As far as I can tell, the "sets" of Kodokan judo are taught pretty much as they have been since the 1880's; the Gokyo was reformulated in the late 1890's, and a new set was added in the 60's. The only "lost" set, the Go-no-kata, seems to have emphasized power throwing techniques, not ne-waza.

    I see no evidence, from the literature, that there has been any signficant change in judo, pre-war to post-war, other than the changes in scoring. It's evolved, but the basic philosphy and focus is pretty much the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by omega
    As you can see most BJJ guys take insult to this. Since my information was from a more direct source the the rest of you can sit and spin, I'll believe a Machado Black Belt over the three of you any day of the week.

    *edit.... oops didn't mean to include you in that branch Aesop.
    I wouldn't assume that a Machada Black Belt is a competent judo historian. Cdronin, on the other hand, from what I've read online, appears to have a judo library at least as large as my own.

    Technique as related to BJJ, maybe not, but I'd listen to what he says about history.
  9. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 11:02am


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    I wouldn't assume that a Machada Black Belt is a competent judo historian. Cdronin, on the other hand, from what I've read online, appears to have a judo library at least as large as my own.

    Technique as related to BJJ, maybe not, but I'd listen to what he says about history.
    Thanks for the props Dakota. I won't comment much on BJJ tecnique, as I have LIMITED experience in it(not that that seems to stop others from commenting).
    I will pull some references out on the weekend and expand on my comment.
  10. RoninPimp is offline
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    BJJ Black Belt

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    Posted On:
    1/13/2006 11:47am

    supporting member
     Style: Rex Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Mastering JuJitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher covers this subject the best I've seen.
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