How much conditioning?

**Punisher** · Posted On: 4/22/2003 11:15pm

I here a lot of guys throw out that a reason that tma’s are weak is because of a lack of conditioning. I have a little problem with this. I just don't think that arguement holds up. I’m all for being healthy and active and all that, and I like to train hard and sweat, but how much stamina do you really need for most situations?

The only place I feel conditioning really comes into play is during a sport type contest, say UFC, Pride, Boxing, sparring, whatever. If your idea is to be able to beat some guy in the street in some 2 hr slugfest, you’re going way overboard and your style has some serious problems in finishing a confrontation. Do you really need to be able to go all out for more than one minute, or 3, or 5, or 10?

I know more is better, but how much do you think you really need?

**PizDoff** · Posted On: 4/22/2003 11:22pm

" I have a little problem with this. "
however exceptional you may be.....obesity is still a growing concern in America....(i love being skinny)

How much do we need? Good question. But when we find out it may very well be too late.

(my knees are crap and my stamina is crap as well, i'm not preaching here)

Maybe sprinting for 2 min? Trying to sprint for two mins?

Yes that would be a good quantitative goal to reach. But better yet, try running after you got your chest compacted by a stomp, or kick, or punch. Not as fun is it? How do we know? We don't, so the more the better.

"The only place I feel conditioning really comes into play is during a sport type contest."
And sparring is just toned down fighting....I've started cardio again recently and I don't huff and puff as bad as the other guys do anymore! :)

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.

**PizDoff** · Posted On: 4/22/2003 11:24pm

i read some crap about musculare memory or something.....the ability to keep doing motions (say punching) when the arm is tired, this can be trained by.......yes punching until the arm is tired...

www.stadion.com is a good source of info. Find their newsletter thingy.

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.

**Punisher** · Posted On: 4/22/2003 11:30pm

"however exceptional you may be.....obesity is still a growing concern in America....(i love being skinny)"

I like being skinny too, or at least I used to. After college I moved from the lower end to the upper end of the target weight range for my height and build, and not becuase I was lifting weights. Another reason I started training again. I do think people should excercise, but saying that they should do so because will need that stamina in a fight is a little more iffy.

I think if you can spar full contact and intensity for 3 minutes, that is more than enough stamina for most things you'll face outside sport competition.

**noodles** · Posted On: 4/23/2003 3:43am

I agree with your basic point Punisher (IMO if you're not done a "real" fight in 30 seconds max, something's wrong).

The three minutes you mention is, as you say, more than you're likely to need. Sparring full contact and intensity for 3 minutes, in my experience, takes a hell of a lot of conditioning -- a lot more than you're likely to "need" for self-defence purposes. I run, swim, etc., at least a couple of times a week (not necessarily for MA training but at least partly because I enjoy it). Still, sparring 2 minutes flat out against a superior opponent takes a lot out of me.

I think the main value of aerobically intense MA training from a self-defence perspective comes from fighting when you're tired and not thinking and reacting at 100%. I think if you can condition yourself such that you're used to fighting when you're less than physically and mentally optimal, your ability to deal with a range of situations increases.

**Blad3** · Posted On: 4/23/2003 4:40am

much stamina do you really need for most situations?

For the ones I train in? A lot... I mean you may not know what it;s like to be complete gased out, not being able to continue because you can barely breath - I do, and I know that AT LEAST stamina is incrediably improtant. If a "situation" is going to last for one punch or so, then maybe it wont matter. But as soon as it goes past a certain amount of time, not a very long, like 10 seconds or so, conditioning or stamina plays a big, very important part.

3, or 5, or 10

No, and thats how long a lot of those fighting style's matches go on. I don;t even have good enough stamina to go on for 3 minutes straight, full power - so to me it;s very important.

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket.

**Punisher** · Posted On: 4/23/2003 4:41am

Noodles,

You have a good point, and I see that training through and understanding fatigue, especially as it starts to affect your quality of movement, can be valuable. I still don't think what you are talking about is as important as most people say it is.

The main reason I believe the way I do is the major drop in movement quality experienced in fighting isn't because of fatigue, it is because of fear/adrenaline. Fatigue is a relatively gradual process, your control over your body and mind go little by little, how fast or slow depending on you level of fitness. But when the **** really hits the fan, your fine motor control goes right in the toliet as soon as the adrenaline hits your blood stream. People need to train for this sudden loss of their facilties.

It is important to try to make training safe, but emotionally uncomfortable/intense so you can best duplicate this.

Training that includes going full contact or being placed in a stressful situation, such as sparring mutiple opponents, helps you experience these type of conditions. Often in class my heart is beating quckily, not because of the phyiscal exertion, but because I'm getting emotionally involved and what I'm doing is getting closer and closer in my mind to a real confrontation.

In my opinion training like this will help in a real fight more than being able to run for 5 miles, do 50 push ups without stopping, or even having the stamina (Please note I haven't said anything about the chin) to last a 10 round boxing match.

Edited by - Punisher on April 23 2003 04:43:23

**Blad3** · Posted On: 4/23/2003 4:56am

"Training that includes going full contact or being placed in a stressful situation, such as sparring mutiple opponents, helps you experience these type of conditions. " yes, however I get tired out quickly..

In my opinion training like this will help in a real fight more than being able to run for 5 miles, do 50 push ups without stopping

Well no see, it's more important that you're able to "run for 5 miles" etc, you need that conditioning, but that's not to say the skill and training "isn't important" because it's a vital factor. Conditioning, i.e. beign able to run that far, is still more important though..

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket.

**noodles** · Posted On: 4/23/2003 5:46am

Well said Punisher. I'd certainly been aware of those factors you mentioned (fear and adrenaline), but you've just made me reevaluate how I conceive of intense training. (More specifically, where the intensity should go.)

But actually (and obviously this is different from "reality"), the first time I sparred 2 opponents my stamina largely dictated how the (1-minute) drill ended -- after 45 seconds of trying to control the fight, I didn't have the strength left to throw an effective attack. Of course, the chances of a 2-on-1 actually lasting 45 seconds are pretty damn slim.

**Blad3** · Posted On: 4/23/2003 6:14am

But actually (and obviously this is different from "reality"), the first time I sparred 2 opponents my stamina largely dictated how the (1-minute) drill ended -- after 45 seconds of trying to control the fight, I didn't have the strength left to throw an effective attack.

Well the same happens with me with one person :O Well in actual fact, after the "warm up" etc, I have little - no cardio left for fighting <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

=====

"I bet you're the kinda guy that would **** a person in the ass and not even have the god damn common courtesy to give him a reach around."

Full Metal Jacket.