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  1. GhostDog68 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 11:12am


     Style: Ex-HFYWC, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Can't Grandmasters be Criticized?

    Question: Is the Grandmaster of a System outside the bounds of criticism?

    LINK

    I also heard a wonderful story of how GM Gee 15 years ago was able to use the Biu Jong concept to defeat a much larger adversary. The man was about 6 feet 6, and almost 300 pounds. His arms alone were about 1 foot longer than GM Gee's arms! He had 10 years experience of Preying Mantis, as well as 3 years of WT training. This man was big, but he could move! However, GM Gee was able to use the Biu Jong to penetrate the big man's defenses and range, and subsequently apply pressure point strikes against this man, in front of about 20 eye-witness martial artists. - Gary Collins

    Me: He was able to use a "concept" in order to defeat a much larger opponent?
    To which one of the Hung Fa Yi guys responded:

    Hello GhostDog

    I would just ask you - no matter what your feelings, leave the head of the Hung Fa Yi lineage out of the discussion. This would be proper ettiquette, no matter what the system or training method or your feelings regarding your experience.

    Cheerio, Gary
    Although I didn't criticize "Grandmaster Gee" in my post, I'm curious:

    Does "proper etiquette" really make him or any other grandmaster immune to criticism?

    Why or why not?
    Last edited by GhostDog68; 1/11/2006 11:48am at .
  2. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 11:16am

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you should know that proper etiquette (in many circles) rests heavily on not questioning (let alone criticizing) experts and authority.

    Which is precisely why that sort of thing is so fun.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  3. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 11:19am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GhostDog68
    Does "proper etiquette" really make him or any other grandmaster immune to criticism?

    Why or why not?
    Hell no it doesn't make them immune. Why? Because I don't buy bullshit, no matter how old the seller is. You could make the (valid) argument that he personally doesn't have to spar or fight anymore to teach what he knows, but that's not what's going on here.


    He's not Pai-Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique isn't real.
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  4. GhostDog68 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 11:31am


     Style: Ex-HFYWC, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateJon
    Hell no it doesn't make them immune. Why? Because I don't buy bullshit, no matter how old the seller is.
    Indeed.

    Why is it, BTW, that such tales are always told by people who were never there, because said incident occured "15 years ago"?

    And why do people glom on to such things anyways?

    And who gives a crap if your "grandmaster" can melt people with his chi?

    Can you do it?
  5. GhostDog68 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 1:18pm


     Style: Ex-HFYWC, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BTW here is Grandmaster Gee's info, case anyone's interested:

    Grandmaster Garrett Gee

    Traditionally, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen was taught primarily to family members and/or indoor disciples. Until instruction of Garrett Gee by Dr. Ming Wang, Hung Fa Yi was never taught outside the family. In order to preserve his art and to honor his Kung Fu lineage, Sifu Gee has decided to pass on his knowledge to students who have demonstrated sincere interest in this Wing Chun style. He is currently the 8th Generation successor of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. His decision to open the system represents the first time in its 330 year history that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen has been taught outside China or to the public.

    At the age of 5, Grandmaster Gee started his martial arts training under the tutelage of his father. While attaining mastery of the various styles in his Kung Fu family lineage, Grandmaster Garrett Gee demonstrated an affinity and flair for swordsmanship and is considered an expert swordsman. He and his brothers are the inheritors of Grandmaster Peter Kim Ho Chu's accumulated knowledge. Consequently, Grandmaster Gee is an accomplished practitioner and instructor of traditional Kung Fu weapons styles. At the age of 13, Grandmaster Gee impressed Dr. Wang Ming as they became acquainted while training daily in a park. Sifu Gee became the last of Dr. Wang's four disciples who received full training in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen. Grandmaster Gee has been teaching since his move to the United States in 1975 at the age of 18. In 2001 he was voted "Martial Artist of the Year" by Action Magazine. Grandmaster Gee, on October 2003, authored one of the best selling martial arts book "Mastering Kung Fu: Shaolin Wing Chun".
    Last edited by GhostDog68; 1/11/2006 1:20pm at .
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 2:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateJon
    He's not Pai-Mei and the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique isn't real.

    So, he wouldn't show it to you, ay? LOL. :deadhorse
  7. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 3:26pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I had the skill and experience of a grand master, I would WANT to be challenged, on a daily basis, just so my students don't forget who I is. If I were a fraud, I would hide behind ettiqute, tradition, and all that other BS Jim Il Jung meets Ashida Kim style.
  8. sweats is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 3:39pm


     Style: Shotokan & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Smells like B.S. already. A family style never before taught to the public. Wow, sounds mysterious.

    And no, he's not above question. That's the kind of thinking that's put martial arts in the sorry state that it's in. Well master says this is how it should be done, we can't change it. If he's so skilled and knows so much, answering questions and defending his opinions should be really easy to do.
    Last edited by sweats; 1/11/2006 3:41pm at .
  9. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 3:45pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GhostDog68
    In 2001 he was voted "Martial Artist of the Year" by Action Magazine. Grandmaster Gee, on October 2003, authored one of the best selling martial arts book "Mastering Kung Fu: Shaolin Wing Chun".[/i]
    Google search for "action magazine" doesn't yield any relevant hits, which is strange for a mag published in 2001.
    And as for the book, here's one pretty good negative review from amazon.com.

    -----
    This book has some thought provoking content, however one has to wade through too many comments like:
    "Hung Fa Yi is the only martial system to ultimately reach maximum levels of efficiency." (p 65)

    Really, the ONLY one? Based on the authors' exhaustive study of every martial system in existence? There are many similar gems to be found in the book all proclaiming one style (theirs of course) to be the best.

    Additionally there are many references to this style as a "science" and not an art, as if to say "those other guys are arts, but we're science". This is a semantic game There is nothing here that a true scientist would call science, despite references to time, space and energy that sound like they come out of a science fiction movie. What a shame. I really wanted to like this book, but there's too much to wade through to get to the meat. I would really like to see an edited second edition. For now, there are plenty of other books that leave out the rhetoric, making it hard to recommend this one.
    -----


    There are other reviews there that are positive though and the average customer review is 4 out of 5 stars., so who knows. But there's only 22 reviews in total, and that doesn't smell like anything "best selling".

    And no he should not be immune to criticism.

    Tomas
    Last edited by dramaboy; 1/11/2006 4:04pm at .
    Current stage of death: denial
  10. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"

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    Posted On:
    1/11/2006 5:01pm


     Style: Ving Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I tend to think of Grand Masters like old retired people. Yes, Grandpa, you fought in WWII and Korea. Yes, you supported your family really well. Yes, all of your kids are still living off your money. Yes, I will call the nurse to get you some new diapers. No, don't eat the cat.

    I tend to think that they desearve tons and tons of respect, but that doesn't mean that the grandkids shouldn't be able to argue about him when he's not around.

    I mean, it's like taking that old retired guy to the golf course or something. He probably has hundreds of funny stories, and can even give you some tips on your swing. He probably also nearly falls over when he swings the club himself, but I don't think that really matters at all. If you're going to sit there and criticize the guy, you're being a total dick. If you're not going to patronize him a little you're probably a dick too. Throw in a couple of cheap laughs. You wouldn't say, "Grandpa, you have the worst swing I've ever seen." You might joke about it with your friends though.

    Bleah, I hate golf. Anyway, I tend to think that someone that high up should embody more the spirit of the school and art and its people, than necessarily the ability itself. Then again, I have seen some younger GMs too that I don't think this applies to. But if the guy is like, 80, don't question him to his face.

    Dagon
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