Knife defense sparring and scenerio training

**Dirty Rooster** · Posted On: 9/12/2006 1:39pm

This is a great thread.
In my LIMITED unarmed-v-knife-attacker training experience it seems speed, aggression and nastiness make a huge difference to the outcome.
Strangely, we have found the more aggressive faster and nastier participant has the greater chance to 'win', regardless of who has a knife.
Yes, this sounds STUPID.
I am hopeful that after some more training sessions we will find the corney "90% of the time the defender will get stabbed" results, but we haven't got that yet.
We use something like a rubber knife with at least two observers or video.
There is NEVER something resembling duelling in this scenario.

I just don't see how on earth you can train this stuff with blunted metal knives .. please someone enlighten me on how you do that without making big holes in each others ribs and faces ?

**FormatC** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 1:17pm

Originally Posted by Dirty Rooster

This is a great thread.
In my LIMITED unarmed-v-knife-attacker training experience it seems speed, aggression and nastiness make a huge difference to the outcome.
Strangely, we have found the more aggressive faster and nastier participant has the greater chance to 'win', regardless of who has a knife.
Yes, this sounds STUPID.

No, that doesn't sound stupid at all. It's what Marc MacYoung calls "it" - the survivor's will, and it has much more to do with intention than it has to do with skill or even training. I'd be surprised if there were many on this board who aren't familiar with his site, but to see what I'm talking about check here:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com..._knifefighting
(suffer through the history lesson as the story opens, it's worth it)

you can't help but get lost on that site, too. each link takes you to yet another page full of insight.

-marshall

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 4:19pm

we all very familiar with that silly site. This is the same guy who "proof" that grappling was neccessary was a work of fiction that involved alien invasion.

I wouldn't take anything that site has to say seriously.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 4:23pm

Originally Posted by Marc MacYoung

Why is grappling effective?
In his book The High Crusade Poul Anderson speculated on what would happen if an advanced alien species attempted to conquer earth immediately after the Crusades. The premise of the book was that these aliens had become extremely adept at long-range, artillery-type warfare. They were shocked and confused when the knights, instead of hanging back and attempting to do battle at a distance, charged them and over-ran their positions. This simple, savage strategy worked only because the aliens had lost the ability to effectively fight at close quarters.

lol...aliens. What a douche.

**FormatC** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 6:10pm

What you call his "proof", looks to me more like a metaphor. I don't see how using a metaphor to illustrate his point makes him a douche.

Are there other things on the site that you find ridiculous, or is it mainly just that?

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 6:41pm

Originally Posted by FormatC

What you call his "proof", looks to me more like a metaphor. I don't see how using a metaphor to illustrate his point makes him a douche.

Are there other things on the site that you find ridiculous, or is it mainly just that?

We done that stupid website to death. He makes some basic common sense assertions, they when he goes to back them up, it just a string of **** and retardedness.

Like:

Should I learn ground fighting? Yes.
Why? All around game.

Looks good so far.

Should I use it on the street?. No, broken glass and street lava, etc.

The standard RBSD idiot.

**FormatC** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 8:43pm

Originally Posted by pl4zM4

We done that stupid website to death. He makes some basic common sense assertions, they when he goes to back them up, it just a string of **** and retardedness.

Like:

Should I learn ground fighting? Yes.
Why? All around game.

Looks good so far.

Should I use it on the street?. No, broken glass and street lava, etc.

The standard RBSD idiot.

If by "street lava" you mean multiple attackers, hidden weapons, and the potential for legal trouble, then I guess you get the idea.

Whatever, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. But I think that if you say his entire website is "silly" and full of "**** and retardedness", you're missing out on a lot of good material. To each his own.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 9:00pm

Originally Posted by FormatC

If by "street lava" you mean multiple attackers, hidden weapons, and the potential for legal trouble, then I guess you get the idea.

Whatever, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. But I think that if you say his entire website is "silly" and full of "**** and retardedness", you're missing out on a lot of good material. To each his own.

Or you just don't know enough yet to see pass the common sense and realize he doesn't know ****. That site prays on people like you. One day you'll grow and learn or start posting on Pax Bacullum.

**FormatC** · Posted On: 9/13/2006 9:08pm

Originally Posted by pl4zM4

Or you just don't know enough yet to see pass the common sense and realize he doesn't know ****. That site prays on people like you. One day you'll grow and learn...

fair enough

Originally Posted by pl4zM4

...or start posting on Pax Bacullum

Hah! I doubt that :)

**beringc** · Posted On: 9/18/2006 6:32pm

I had the opportunity to attend some knife training last month. I found that it was very sobering and quite different than most of the stuff I have been exposed to.

My usual response to the knife threat, and the majority of my training, is to react with a higher level of force (a gun). Other than that, I have been shown the usual knife defense stuff that will most likely get you hurt in practical application. I did take one class that was taught by Emerson, and while some of it was good, I wasn't confident with a lot of the moves. There were pretty simple, which is good for some folks.

The recent training was based mostly on military techniques and a large portion of the class was dedicated to combat applications. We did knife vs. unarmed and knife on knife. We also had the new "shock knife" to play with. As with all knife training it was still a challenge to "respect the cut" and the shock knife was more realistic, but the bodies reaction is still questionable.

We went for some full out sparring with dulled aluminum knives. We tried to use target areas that would result in immediate (or close to it) incapacitation and death, like the front of the throat. Cuts were practiced so that it was an actual deep slash rather than the "tippy-tap" style that most people feel is going to work.

We combined whatever else we could (strikes, grappling, terrain, etc.). It ended up being a painful but worthwhile weekend. The learning point for me was that the knife in a combat setting, against an unarmed attacker , with a trained user can be quite effective. If you are faced with a knife on knife, things are different. It seems that one person may get a "kill shot", but the other person almost always gets a wound that would be eventually fatal. Grappling came in to play almost everytime. Much of JJ is valuable when things hit the ground.

It doesn't take much to do this kind of training and I found it very rewarding and very painful. After training, I guarantee everyone will be looking at how they carry their current blade (pocket knive or ??) and the potential for use.

This particular training was by invite only, but I'm sure there are several organizations that have similar seminars. It's well worth getting out of the house once in a while.