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  1. #21
    <plasma>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Do you both get knives when you do this fantasy training?
    We use wooden knives. They can leave a very nice bruise.

    Sometimes both have knives and other times only 1 does. So how is knife sparring "fantasy" and ground grappling "reality".
    Last edited by <plasma>; 1/10/2006 9:46pm at .

  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Should I get attacked on the street, it's likely I'm going to have to use ground fighting, since a headlock is a headlock, the mount is the mount and a RNC is a RNC, regardless of the situation. The delivery system remains unchanged regardless of circumstances because it is based on realistic resistance. The basic skills apply across the board.

    The only way you're going to find a use for what you call knife sparring is if you got into a street fight with the SCA. It's fantasy because you're not training for any realistic situation, and the actions of you and your partner do not resemble those of a real attacker. All of the timing, energy and motion are contrived.

    Now maybe a toxic waste tanker will crash into an arcade and the radioactive goo will leak into the circuitry of the Soul Calibur unit, causing Mitsurugi to leap out of the screen in full 3D and run around terrorizing your quaint hometown. Then we'd know exactly who to call. Then all of the shuffle stepping and stance changes along a two dimensional plane with a boken in hand would be just what the doctor ordered. We could even have an awesome scene where your sensei passes down the Sword of the Dragon, which he has been saving for The Choosen One.

    But until Nickelodeon picks up the awesome story I just laid out and we need an actor to play the underdog hero who pulls through in the end and shows us what real courage is made of and true strength is in the heart, making believe you're in a video game is not building functional skills.

    Sure, it hurts to get hit by a big wooden dowel. So does an over-enthusiastic punch buggy (no punch back!). It's still not functional training, and what you're doing is at best hardkore LARPing.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 1/12/2006 10:38am at .

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    ...If these knife drills are truly trained with aliveness, then they would have value -- but they aren't...
    I was going to tell you to check out the STAB program, but then saw that you had mentioned it also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    So far the only knife defense system that has impressed me is STAB by Karl Tanswell of SBG, which is based largely on the Greco-Roman clinch. He doesn't teach any intercepting disarms like we've all come to expect, since he feels (and I agree) that if anyone is seriously going to stab you, you are going to have little to no warning. It is an almost entirely post-failure defense system, meaning you've already been stabbed, probably before you were aware of the attack.
    I have not read this entire thread yet, so this might have already been posted, but in addition to STAB, Jerry Wetzel's Center Line Gym also has a great program called Red Zone (and Red Zone 2). If you have not checked it out yet you should - it fits together great with the STAB program in my opinion.

    http://www.centerlinegym.com/

  4. #24

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    I've seen Red Zone metioned as a good addition to STAB. Thanks for pointing it out.

  5. #25

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    The nice part about the Red Zone DVD's (as well as STABS), is every drill on there is trained with aliveness - you never have to wonder just what the person means when they are explaining how something should be done.

    The Red Zone DVD's also add in more of the scenario training - it's all done alive, but they do start it in different situations - and as you said (ala Matt Thorton), those with the skills tend to do the best regardless of the situation.

    Lastly - The Redzone DVD (#1 I Believe) has a nice section where Jerry works on applying the principles, from the ground, against Chris Hauter (a BJJ 2nd Black Belt) - Good Stuff.

  6. #26
    WhiteShark's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to get an idea how dangerous knife work is and how to defend against it (or fail to defend against it) try this:

    Next time you roll with 4-5 pairs of people on the floor throw ONE knife in the mix. Have people pass it around and try to be subtle. In T3h str33ts you don't know if the guy has a knife until its too late. This usually becomes a disaster where if you ever lose track of the knife you get stabbed real fast.

  7. #27

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In my (admittedly limited) experience, the placement of the knife, starting posture and starting distance make huge differences.

    I cross-train with a guy who has a blue belt in BJJ. We went over couple of different starting conditions.

    There was:

    1) The knife is out.
    2) The knife is tucked away.

    and:

    1) You're standing in a ready position.
    2) You're standing normally.

    and:

    1) You're standing at typical sparring distance (which begged the question of why one of us wouldn't just take off).
    2) You're standing close enough to clinch.

    These aren't really "scenarios," but they did give us different insights. Take these as you will:

    1) Taking a step back so that you're no longer totally square is really improves your ability to avoid what would be a serious injury. I know this seems like a no-brainer, but a lot of "scenario"-based stuff emphasizes you moving *from* a natural posture.

    2) We couldn't get the knife at all without driving forward to take each other's balance, either with a shot or soing into the clinch. If you don't do that, you tend to cet cut and stabbed more.

    3) Holding your palms toward the guy with the knife before making contact is a great way to get cut and stabbed. It tends to expose the inside line to attack.

    That's just how it went with us going full speed with hard rubber knives. YMMV.

  8. #28
    Meex's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    But until Nickelodeon picks up the awesome story I just laid out and we need an actor to play the underdog hero who pulls through in the end and shows us what real courage is made of and true strength is in the heart, making believe you're in a video game is not building functional skills.
    Did someone call??

    There's no need to ph43R. . .an' all that!




    `~/

  9. #29
    Neildo's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Should I get attacked on the street, it's likely I'm going to have to use ground fighting, since a headlock is a headlock, the mount is the mount and a RNC is a RNC, regardless of the situation. The delivery system does not change because it is based on realistic resistance, which remains relatively unchanged even if the circumstances do. The basic skills apply across the board.
    Do the other students bootfuck your brain when you're rolling around on the floor?

    If not, you're not training for t3h str33t.
    :new_all_c

  10. #30
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neildo
    Do the other students bootfuck your brain when you're rolling around on the floor?

    If not, you're not training for t3h str33t.
    Instead of wasting time with this again, you could just declare that you have no remaining good arguments and leave the thread.

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