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  1. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 2:29am

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     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    muay thai clinch

    figures that even though its teh grapple it is still stand up so it should go here (and plus those gracie nutrider fucks have like a million threads already)

    note that i wrote this on MAP fairly specificly for muay thai. but it is still applicable to most things.

    So lets start with the basic clinch position...



    you usually want to try and have at least one hand round the neck, like how this guy on the left of the picture is doing. his other arm has been trapped, but in such a way that it pretty much disables his opponent from doing anything with it- while the guy on the left can still use it for leverage since it is pressed against his opponents body. from here what will usually happen is a fight for position- both guys want their arms to be on the inside of the other persons around the opponents neck and shoulders. If you are doing it without gloves there are more positions you can hold them in such as grabbing limbs. Now one important thing is to note how close their bodies are. this is because if your body is far away it sets you up for a straight knee which can easily be a fight ender. while of course you can do the same to them its much better if you stay close, put them off balance, and THEN pull back for the straight knee....



    like in this picture. Of course there is more than one way to clinch. you dont always have to be straight on, in fact it can be better if you are off to one side as you can get better leverage.



    like that. you can see how the lighter skinned fellow (Jadamba) has been off balanced to his right, and Buakaw the dark skinned guy is landing a very nice knee. but doing that is pretty much only going to get you one knee strike since you are pushing them down and arent really controlling the head like in a front on clinch.

    Off balancing in the clinch is essential. you simply will not be able to deliver a powerful round knee (a knee that comes up and into the side of the opponent instead of straight through the middle) if the other guy is standing balanced. if you watch inexperienced fighters they often just go hell for leather with the knees, but you watch some pros from thailand and they will pick their shots and time them well. there are a couple of ways to off balance someone in the clinch- first way is to just plain old yank them downwards and to the left/right (important- if your head is on their shoulder in a close clinch, DO NOT yank their head towards yours. not only is it harder to get any real leverage but pulling someones head into yours is usually a painful experience)

    yanking someone like that can work but is a real inefficient thing to do and is more dependant on strength. so to make it easier, lets make a scenario- you are standing front on in the clinch with your opponent, with both your hands around his neck on the inside of his arms. you have a superior position here so your leverage is gonna be better. Now, lets say you want to throw him to your left. you would step across at an angle to your right with your right foot while your left foot goes backwards (note- in the picture below Sato doesnt step across. you dont always have to especially if you are a tall guy, and in fact it is sometimes better not to because it can leave you open or telegraph your intention. but if you are going for a real heaver of a throw it can be good). at the same time as your foot going backwards you tear downwards and to the left as hard as you can, and as soon as they start to go, you bring your left leg back up for the knee- much like Sato does in this picture-



    and bang, knee to the guts. same thing can be done with a straight knee, you just need to put your left leg back a little further. I think thats enough writing for now, Ill post some more ways to throw and some ways to counter later on... anyone else wants to contribute feel free, I think the clinch is a very under examined part of fighting in a lot of places.
  2. daigoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 3:33pm


     Style: MT (no, not "empty")

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tips for newbs & MT clinch:

    Notice the posture of the 2 Thai fighters in the first pic. They are standing tall and erect with heads/chin up. The fighter on the left is on his toes to get a height/leverage advantage and to avoid being caught "flatfooted" and losing balance . This a traditional MT stance for the plum.

    My teacher dedicates 20-30 mins every class to just clinching. The biggest beginner mistakes i see during this drilling are looking down, poor balance, grabbing the neck too low and gassing. Looking down while pummeling in the clinch is a golden opportunity for me to snap your head down. You are already doing half the work for me by looking down. Once i have your head down you are my bitch and I will do you like Wandy did Rampage.

    Poor balance and footwork are going to get you tossed around like a rag doll. If youre not on your toes you will usually be a microsecond to slow to react. Also standing on you toes can give you a little extra leverage to assist you in pulling down your opponents head. A frequent lesson i show newbs is how i can control them from just a single collar tie and make them Ginger Rogers to my Fred Astaire.

    When grabbing the "neck" the optimal hand position is cupping the base of the skull or a little higher. Grabbing the neck doesnt give you the leverage to pull your opponents head down. My teacher told me if you want to bend a tree downward you dont grab it around middle of the trunk and pull, you grab it by the very top (course it better be a short tree).

    Gassing while clinching isnt uncommon because it is very physically demanding. But newbs make it tougher by tirring out their arms and shoulders. They strain and squeeze (hmm, sounds kind of gross) and try to outmuscle me for position. Strength is only 1 factor for succesful clinching and can be neutralized with good pummeling technique. And if you cant get the clinch, dont force it. Push away and try again.





    Anyway here's a couple of links:
    http://www.usmta.com/Muay%20Thai%20F...20Clinch-1.htm
    http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/mt/kk23.html
    Last edited by daigoro; 1/09/2006 3:39pm at . Reason: adding links
  3. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 3:41pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing, if you have someone in your clinch is you should have your hips back to avoid being grabbed. If you keep your hips in, you're asking for the other person to get their underhooks which is a good spot for a leg hook or suplex. When sparring with larger apponents, or those that have a better plum clinch game than me, I'll go for the underhooks and when I'm there, throw knees to the thighs or push on the hips to create a bit of space for knees to the body or go for a leg hook to get a quick takedown.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  4. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 4:01pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great posts so far!

    Thanks to the three.
  5. daigoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 4:17pm


     Style: MT (no, not "empty")

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    One thing, if you have someone in your clinch is you should have your hips back to avoid being grabbed. If you keep your hips in, you're asking for the other person to get their underhooks which is a good spot for a leg hook or suplex. When sparring with larger apponents, or those that have a better plum clinch game than me, I'll go for the underhooks and when I'm there, throw knees to the thighs or push on the hips to create a bit of space for knees to the body or go for a leg hook to get a quick takedown.

    Thats true in regards to MMA/NHB. In MT competition you dont have to worry about those kind of throws. The "crackback" is my preferred dirty move from a weak/busted clinch. Works well alone or with a leg hook/reap or a trip.

    I learned the move when i showed this article
    http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...sityodtong.htm
    to my teacher and asked him about it. iIdidnt know what a crackback was but he was like "OK, no prob" and showed it too me quickly.
  6. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 4:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Care to explain the crackback in further detail?
  7. daigoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 5:00pm


     Style: MT (no, not "empty")

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    Care to explain the crackback in further detail?
    Movbe your hips back to create space, bearhug the waist and pull their hips towards yours while you push forward and down into them with your shoulder(s). If successful, they fall backwards. Works best if they are up on their toes. Add hoop/trip if you can.
  8. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 5:15pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daigoro
    Thats true in regards to MMA/NHB. In MT competition you dont have to worry about those kind of throws. The "crackback" is my preferred dirty move from a weak/busted clinch. Works well alone or with a leg hook/reap or a trip.

    I learned the move when i showed this article
    http://www.geocities.com/global_trai...sityodtong.htm
    to my teacher and asked him about it. iIdidnt know what a crackback was but he was like "OK, no prob" and showed it too me quickly.

    in Muay thai the throws aren't an issue, but someone underhooking you will nuetralise your clinch and put them in better position for throwing knees. You don't have control of their head, like in the plum clinch, but it gives you control over their hips.

    edit: I was not aware that leg hooking was illegal in muay thai
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  9. daigoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 6:18pm


     Style: MT (no, not "empty")

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    edit: I was not aware that leg hooking was illegal in muay thai
    You can wrap your leg around opponent and kick with your heel but this is considered a bitch move and may be scored against you by MT judges. Leg hooking for the purpose of takedown/throwing is illegal as it is considered a judo/wrestling throw.


    http://www.wmtc.nu/html/wmc03rle.html#18

    item 18
    http://www.usmta.com/usmta.htm


    :wrestlerf beacause my niece wanted it
    :pancakebu
    Last edited by daigoro; 1/09/2006 7:05pm at .
  10. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2006 11:04pm

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool, thanks for the info.

    Another thing I like doing when I have someone in the clinch is sort of hopping from foot to foot, keeping weight on my opponent's neck/head. This also seems to set up well for knees and is really good for finding different angles to get clean shots in.

    Also, I like to push into my opponents collar with my forearm in a quick motion to turn their body and create space for a knee to the solar plexus, or have them turned in for a knee to the floating ribs near the person's back (this hurts even more than the solar plexus, shot in my opinion. Buakaw Por Pramuk TKO'd Katsunori Yoneda with this in a K-1 match).
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
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