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  1. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 6:41am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    But...he said that! Royal Dragon said that he would use some of that stuff while fighting, that's what I thought was silly. Stances like that just give you shitty base. There was no straw man, there was a real man!
    The problem seems to be (and JFS pointed that out already) that people actually DO use these stances, but not as STANCES, but as transitional positions. See for example the attaches images, which are taken from a wrestling instructional. But that realization has been lost through some abstractions in training.

    The first level of abstraction is to drill the underlying *move*ments solo to develop good form and proper conditioning (that's where these screenshots are from). This should be fairly uncontroversial - even BJJers practice shrimping and bridging.

    The next level is to slow down the movements to the point where you isolate the stances and demand that the practitioner be in control and balance at every single point - going from dynamic to quasi-static. This may make sense for conditioning purposes, but will not develop aspects like flow and timing, and is one step farther from application.

    At the next level, and this seems to be where some of CMA stands today, stances become completely detached from the movement they were meant for, and "proper form" becomes an end of itself, rather than a means to an end.

    What I'm getting at is that this stuff should be taught in the proper context of "what is it good for, and when" to make any sense.
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    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
  2. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 8:48am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    Anyway, I know a guy who would kick the ass of damn near everybody on this thread, if not this forum.
    Way cool ... can you get him to show up and Rep at the MMTD? Just got to meet and try out this "hero" of yours ... read on for the reason(s) ...

    He does Kenpo, ...
    **** blatant notorious for their wunnerful demos in which some guy throws a punch and is somehow magically frozen in time while the Kenpo stylist rips off a dozen or so punches in machine gun fashion ... UBER ****.

    ... and I've seen him go through his kata, he's real fast and powerful, and damn does it ever look impressive.
    *yawn* ... Form Farie Magic dazzles yet another fool who knows nothing. I've seen lots of "impressive" Form-Set-Kata displays and know for a fact the one looking so purty & deadly would be best served staying home when it came to a real fight.

    BTW, just wtf "qualifies" you as being someone that merits your being impressed meaning squat to me? I've read your posts ... you're a fucking cheerie noob.

    I've also seen him fight...and use Muay Thai, and wrestling to dismantle people.
    What a fookin moron. Look, a MA system-style is a vehicle and nothing more. How the bio-mechanical principles are configured in the moment depends on many variables not the least of which are "need" and the "skill level" of the one in the fight. I "do" some things that look quite a bit like Judo ... but that's attributable to what was needed which just happens to have a close analog found in the formal curriculum of Judo.

    Whenever it 'tards down to "style or system" I read closely to see who really understands this thing. If someone repeatedly is citing to this system or that as "the" answer then I just laugh and go about my day.

    Save for someone with a very learned eye anyone who truly "knows" a MA method or approach should appear virtually formless in a fight ... what they "do" should look very much like everyday movement ... casual to the point of appearing sloppy is how I prefer to express it. A heavy stylistic imprint runs counter to the Human Condition and stinks of someone who just doesn't get it.

    "The Dance is not in the Steps." (PR, 2000)

    He doesn't use Kenpo when he really fights.
    Oh ... I see ... your Boyfriend spends his time practicing and training something combat based but doesn't use it when he "really fights" ... the guy is a fucking idiot ... tell him I said so.

    He could, and in a self defence situation, some of the elbow and hand strikes would probably help him a little, but when it comes down to it, against a skilled opponent, he invariably falls back on the most effective techniques in his arsenal, and none of them are from Kenpo.
    Bullshit ... absolute BULLSHIT. You post up as the typical "fighting is a fast game of chess" shitbag. He could "do" this ... but "chooses" to "do" that ... a fucking idiot you are ... thanks for sharing.

    A fight ... a REAL fight and not one of those "Meet me at High Noon" deals happens outside the operating range of normal thought procesesses and like most things associated with the Human Condition comes as a wide ranging bundle. We are very much Holistic creatures and a source of highly intense sensory input carries with it an attending wide range of effects.

    I've been in lots of "real" fights and even when battle hardened or conditioned if you prefer ... it's never been "Now I reach into my style "X" bag of tricks and really hurt this fukwit." It's fairly spontaneous, characterized by swirling - whirling limbs, body clashing ... messy **** ... and lots of fun ... for me.

    In all seriousness, your Friend resorts to what he does because that's where he is most comfortable and for no other reason.

    As a MOD you really ought to try to be a bit more informed ... it's Martial ART and not Art in a Martial Medium. As it is Art it is profoundly individual and the simple "truth" of the matter no matter what system-style-approach-method a person pursues their Art through ... in the heat of the moment what is made manifest is really the person proper.

    Now get your oh such an asskicker buddy to show at the MMTD ... I'll wager I wipe him out and without a lot of problems at that. Then I'll let you kow-tow to me and lick my shoes until they are clean. The BEAST
    Last edited by JFS USA; 1/15/2006 11:41am at .
  3. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 8:58am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beatdown Richie
    At the next level, and this seems to be where some of CMA stands today, stances become completely detached from the movement they were meant for, and "proper form" becomes an end of itself, rather than a means to an end.

    What I'm getting at is that this stuff should be taught in the proper context of "what is it good for, and when" to make any sense.
    Right on point Dude. In simple terms what has happened over the last 30 plus years is that "The Dance is not in the Steps." has been replaced with "Do this form-kata and become a great fighter."

    As much as peeps squirm over it ... the buyer bears some measure of responsibility when their "magic bean" fails to grow into something ... magical.

    I can't think of another discipline where bullshit has been bought and sold on such a global scale ... just fucking Mind blowing to me. In no other discipline do I see, read, hear ... peeps become "good" at "it" by not doing "it" ... fighting has somehow managed to become the exception.

    There is no doubt in my Mind that the single most dominant reason for this abomination is that most peeps are in fact scared stupid of fighting.
  4. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 9:02am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    thanks for the response, JFS
    You're welcome.
  5. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 10:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    Omar, you should realize you're sounding marginally less stupid than Hedge, and much less funny.
    My heart just isn't in it anymore. I can't even find the strength to flame properly this time around. It's just that important to me.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  6. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 10:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    btw, Cullion, in your little debate with ICY on the previous page you could mention one of our less frequent posters here, Shooter. He's another Taiji guy. He was I think the only person other than yourself who saw what I was doing with that round kick of mine and the accompanying clips.

    He has posted pics of himself in the past demonstrating stances just like RD did. He'd probably post more here except that it's not worth the ridicule. Even with a decent MMA record and having trained succesfull MMA fighters....no one here gives a ****. (for the most part) You will still be considered to train in a ***** internal art and your stances will be ridiculed no matter how many full contact wins you rack up.

    He also has about 8 or 9 MMA fights to his name. His record is not spectacular but he's won his fair share.

    He does nothing but boring old Yang style Taiji too.

    Here's an old thread:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2642

    Man...I forgot about that thread. That was golden. It's amazing how much the attitudes have changed since then....oh that's right...they haven't. Everyone is just as ignorant and narrowminded now as then.
    Last edited by Omar; 1/15/2006 10:26am at .
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 10:40am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for that Omar I didn't know about shooter, sounds like an interesting guy.

    BTW, Blad3's behaviour in that thread should be a warning to people. Spouting off absolute crap about something he doesn't really know anything about "but hey it's tai chi, right?"

    Don't be Blad3 guys.
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  8. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 12:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    Exercise, for its own sake, and only its own sake is fine.
    Sure ... for peeps that have no desire to "do" anything beyond pursue some level of physical fitness (however defined). For a MA "excercise" for its own sake is time wasted ... you know ... wasted time ... like reading your posts expecting some significant content.

    Kata that MEAN something, like shadow boxing, are fine.
    And peeps that equate doing a Set-Form-Kata with little more than shadow boxing are fucking flatliners whose understanding matches that of a young Child ... that has been taught wrong.

    But bullshit is bullshit and I will not give it another label.
    I admire your standards ... get off the computer now ... go look in the mirror and say "Bullshit" ... there, you have just been properly identified ... noob.

    I use "forms" I shadow box all the time, but I can apply that form DIRECTLY to fighting. The only difference is that my punches will hit a person instead of air.
    BBBBWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAAAAhhhhhhaaaaa ... unHoly **** ... what a HOOT ... where to begin ... hmmm ....

    That "... the only difference ..." bullshit you spewed out of your asshole, hopefully AFTER removing your head from same, is a nice bit of transparent NOOB stupidity.

    Please allow me to help you out a bit ... you know nothing cherry NOOB. The "only" thing? Not hardly, asswipe. Newtonian Mechanics apply in this setting so I'll use them as a presenting conceptual platform ... you fucking moron.

    Unlike "shadow boxing" when you make impact with another person you impart a force ... of some magnitude ... into them. Their structure distorts, a momentary unbalancing occurs, they physically displace to some degree ... lots of things happen to your target of the moment that don't present when "shadow boxing" ... 'tard.

    An opposite and equal reaction transpires ... when you strike them, when you deposit force into their structure, you also undergo structural distortion arising directly from the feedback of force ... the opposite and equal reaction along with all the other previously noted attending factors ... you dumbass douche bag.

    Please, thanks for providing yet more proof that you haven't the slightest idea wtf you are talking about ... and I really don't need any more proof from you. You have completely convinced me beyond a "shadow" of a doubt that you are a brain dead moron attempting to nutride one thing while dissing another ... and completely failing in both endeavors.

    I don't stand on one leg, hop up and down, THEN try to shadow box.
    Hehehehehehe ... just had to shoot yourself in the other foot ... eh, gimpy?

    Would it improve my balance? Sure. Could I apply it to fighting? ****, NO!
    And we all know that a higher level of balance, much like higher levels of functional strength, cardio & muscular endurance, flexibility, etc., has no place in fighting ... Hehehehehe ... what a fucking idiot. The BEAST
  9. Boyd is offline
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    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 2:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's the problem.

    The Chinese martial arts are, without question, supersaturated with frauds, pussies, posers, hippies, and just about every other flavor of undesirable to be found in the martial arts. This much we should be able to agree on. Compounding issues is that these people are going to join their first class expecting magic and mystery and reaching into people's chest cavities and tearing out their sternums, and actually be taught just that!.

    I think most CMAists will agree with me on that point, if nothing else, that "kung fu" attracts a lot of loser students and delusional teachers. A common cliche I've heard uttered by almost all of the CMAists on this board is that "99.99% of Chinese martial arts are crap". And you, of course, think your school is special and in that .01 percent. Fine, I'll take your word for it.

    But then I listen to you guys discuss your training. And it's like no one can agree on anything. Everyone thinks everyone else belongs to that "99.99%". No one can agree on how postures are supposed to be, what the application of a move is, how to properly do such-and-such form--the only thing I'm hearing agreement on is when you turn to the rest of us and say "...but we do train full-contact". And I'm not just talking about ??ing ??un-style lineage wars, either; if I asked 50 different CMAists why you stand in goofy stances, some would say it's exercise, some would say it's teaching principles of movement, some would say it's for fighting, some would say it's an antiquitated relic, some would say it's Wushu seeping into kung fu. There's absolutely no consistency except for your assurances that your sifu is very progressive and knows something that no one else does.

    Which is why it's so hard to take these traditional training methods seriously. You guys can't even agree on what these fucking stances are used for. It's like the entire Chinese mindset has become so inundated with teaching through obtuse metaphors and symbols and expects students to make huge leaps of faith that it's no wonder there's so much confusion.

    Call me a nutrider all you want, but on my first day of boxing I was taught my one stance, and to never deviate from it. The hands stay up at all times. Stay on the balls of your feet. Chin down. There was absolutely no question as to the purpose of a given position, and in the event there was, the answer was always clear, direct, and literal. If I wanted to, I could compare notes on my stance with other boxers without finding out that keeping my elbows in was symbolic for chambering punches, and having my chin tucked was a beautiful metaphor for alertness.

    Instead of saying "You're not qualified to judge us", I think many CMA need to consider the importance of outside perspective. When you guys can't even agree on the meaning of a stance, you're in bad shape.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

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  10. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2006 2:58pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *Fucking applause*

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