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  1. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:06am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Why I don't give a crap about how "hardcore" your school is anymore

    As some of you may note, I have "kenpo," listed in my style. It isn't EPAK. It's something of dubious provenance (Okinawan, apparently) that I trained in actively for eight years or so.

    Going by Bullshido standards, the training holds up well for standup (there was some grappling, but the techniques were taught in isolation, with no set ground skills). There was hard contact sparring in virtually every class -- we just tried to take it easy on the face. The instructor was ripped and gave us weight training regimens two years into training. He knew the traditional conditioning exercises but didn't care for them. We almost never did "one-steps" of any sort.

    It was grueling stuff, especially for me. I started out barely being able to get out 10 sloppy-ass pushups. I've never been particularly athletic and I was more timid that other folks I know about the degree of contact. But my friends (and some people who I couldn't let my 15 year old self show weakness around) were in, and I was in, so I stuck it out. It worked. I pretty much stopped losing fights after three years, the only exception being some judoka who pwned us in a friendly challenge and one Wolfgang Droege, a white supremacist who tried to kill me with a steel flashlight in 1993.

    All in all, five of us stuck the class out for longer than two years. We either trained outdoors or in a church gym, and had to occasionally explain ourselves when we had to see somebody about injuries that stretched the gamut from a simple sprained ankle to a broken hand, a lumbar compression fracture and a stab wound from a "safety" knife.

    Eventually the class fell apart for various reasons, I left Toronto and moved to my current town, and fell out of training. Getting back into it became more and more difficult because I suppose I was thinking from two different directions. Part of me couldn't respect some of the schools and wanted what I was used to, but when I got it . . . I came to realize that I'm not one of those guys who gets seriously into improvement through pain. I'm a wimp, in other words. But somehow, I stuck it out before -- so how the hell did that happen? What was the special quality that got me to the point of very rigorous practice, and what was the missing link I needed from a school to feel inspired again? Less rigorous training wasn't it, because I didn't respect it, but jumping right back in wasn't working either. This was exacerbated when I developed some pretty severe health problems that weren't treated until about two years ago.

    That answer is something I think is relevant to the kind of talk we do here (well, during them times when shitflinging doesn't blow it apart, that it). I think I'm a pretty average guy. I am not someone who is "hardcore" by nature and I think that goes for a lot of people, including more folks on this board that would really care to admit it. It's natural for us to respect and emulate that drive and athelticism. It's healthy and useful to have these role models.

    But it looks to me that this technique for self improvement (finding the best and using them as a guide) has taken over the whole concept of how to train and what art to choose. It's this kind of warped thinking that's made nutriding (including "counter"nutriding) a barrier to serious discussion. And it's why I no longer give a **** about how hardcore your school is.

    I'll use "hardcore" to describe a whole bunch of factors, like the emphasis on alive training, heavy contact and conditioning as a prerequisite for success. We know that the arts that have these factors but out the most respectable fighters. What we are perhaps less willing to admit to ourselves is that the average person is not with the program for two reasons. First of all, they don't have the inclination for this kind of rough training, and secondly, they have a combination of myth and truth that tells them there's another way that won't let them beat a Gracie, but will give them the direction they need to deal with violence. Bullshido hates the myth, but when a true account of self-defense that doesn't involve a board "darling" comes up, nobody has anything useful to say. The analysis leaves hardcore, nutriding territory, and gets promptly polaxed, because Bullshido doesn't seem to have the intellectual tools to look at the kind of situations where average people and martial arts successfully get something done.

    Related to this is the conflation between method and style. The CMA/anti-CMA threads are full of stupid noise relating to this. Everybody agrees that conditioning, live training and contact are key -- but this has nothing to do with techniques. How the **** can anybody actually figure this **** out if we're not even talking about the technical base any more? Then again, maybe that's the problem. There's some truth to the idea that people who like the aesthetics of martial arts don't like the fact and a big ************ who can take a punch can use that as 90% of his game. And really, if the best you can say about your art is that you tend to have more shaved gorillas, and the best defense you can come up with is, "Contrary to popular belief, we also stuff large primates into rashguards!" well, you're losing. You're arguing about how *un*necessary your training is.

    The other problem is that we are no longer having any sort of conversation about how the average person can acquire effective self-protection skills and something of real value along with the sense of community and cultural practice. Yeah, I'm sure we can feel elite about how hard a regimen is or feel good that the fat guys wash out and the hippies cry, but this attitude not only keeps martial arts in a sorry-ass shape, but is the hallmark of assholes everywhere. I can only think of one period in history where everybody *did* adopt hardcore training as the basic way to do martial arts, but somehow, something tells me that emulating the sports culture of fascist Japan would be a fucking stupid idea.

    I know it sems like I'm drifting, but it all comes together. What I've come to realize is that I stuck with the kenpo because it was smart about *progressively* applying intensity in a *personalized* fashion. And what I realize in my CMA now is the same thing taking place. Like I said, I'm an average guy. In the gap between kenpo and CMA, there were weak-ass schools that would not challenge me, and strong schools that I could stay with, but at the expense of so much initial discomfort that I was better off doing something else.

    What I've noticed with this approach is that it also seems to actually fulfil the promise you hear so much in martial arts, about transforming a meek person into someone wioth increased confidence and solid self-protection skills. Contrast this with the typical McDojo attendee (who's too weak or has untested techniques under the hood) or athletic martial artist (many of them are, in my experience, already fit and aggressive *before* training). I appreciate this transformative effect and at this point, I'm interested in how to get it to work. My reasons are both personal (I have two kids *and* I'm trying to get back into shape without over training) and theoretical. It's definitely much more interesting than how terribly fucking important it is to be hardcore, since, as far as I gather, everybody already agrees with that.

    Just some thoughts. I don't mean for this to have simple answers. It's just been something I've been thinking about.
  2. dakotajudo is offline
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    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good thoughts.

    My only complaint is that you may be giving too much credit to that vocal group of nutriding Bullshidoka, and not enough to the quieter, more moderate voices. Yeah, there's a bombastic subculture here, but it's not the only one.
  3. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:55am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is certainly a moderate position between "A big strong oponent is still a challenge to a person with training" and "You are arguing against the need for your own training"

    There are some good points there but you really really get out on the ice over the strawman pond in a couple places.

    Good read tho.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 11:02am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think it's fair to categorize grappling and MMA schools as only working for big muscular people with huge pain thresholds (the 'success by attrition of the initially weak' argument).

    Some of the grapplers and MMA'ers here are doubtless big strong guys who can take a lot of punishment (however, you don't know how many years of working out and eating right it took to get them like that, not all the physically powerful people are like that by genetics alone), but some of them are pretty lightly-built guys who admit to not being involved in anything atheletic or 'martial' before taking up grappling/MMA.

    I have a hunch that one of the problems with CMA is that they have all these flashy aesthetically pleasing forms and 'alternative health' side to them, so they attract (and are often deliberately marketed this way) to lots of people who have no interest in fighting. There are generations of instructors who only ever did that side of it themselves.

    With things like Boxing and BJJ, there's not really much doubt what they're for, so even though boxers and BJJers come in all sizes and levels of natural ability (plenty of physically average guys), by taking up the art they've chosen they've already self-selected as people who are looking for some action.
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  5. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 11:13am

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting idea, I agree, and I had a similar experience. I just went and tested myself against other schools a little more than you did it seems and got an inflated ego from it. Then I got injured fairly badly (in training) and sick (to the point where I had to stop training) and re-evaluated the value of my training.

    I believe now that advanced grappling techniques are simply unnecessary for self-defence. Simple is easier and better if all you have to deal with is other normal people and not experts in unarmed combat. I can teach someone what they NEED to know about grappling in a couple of hours, if they know how to absorb the knowledge I'm imparting effectively.

    Teaching people how to learn properly is the first thing I go over now. Next are really basic grappling and striking that, if they learned the learning part, they will learn effectively in a few classes, and if all they want is self defence from other normal people, they won't need to learn anything else.
  6. Gringo Grande is offline
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    Ninjer Pile on Me! Hurr!

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 1:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bad KB, Worse MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I believe now that advanced grappling techniques are simply unnecessary for self-defence. Simple is easier and better if all you have to deal with is other normal people and not experts in unarmed combat. I can teach someone what they NEED to know about grappling in a couple of hours, if they know how to absorb the knowledge I'm imparting effectively.
    Teaching people how to learn properly is the first thing I go over now. Next are really basic grappling and striking that, if they learned the learning part, they will learn effectively in a few classes, and if all they want is self defence from other normal people, they won't need to learn anything else.
    This should be stickied and then be required reading before anyone is allowed to post here.

    Gringo Grande
    MMA Record vs Llamas 0-1-0
    (The Llama bit my junk but the ref didn't see it).
  7. BSDaemon is offline
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    Being Sublime Daily

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 1:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ/MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As long as you are resigned to the fact that a grappler can shoot in and choke you out at will, hey, whatever floats your boat.

    -Shaved Gorilla Nutrider
  8. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 2:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Watch out, that first step is a doozy.

    -"Unshaved" Gorilla
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  9. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 2:07pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't use fucking profanity in the fucking thread title.

    ****.
  10. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 3:47pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm on the fence, but I agree with what you're saying.

    Basically, those of us who don't have the time/money/health to practice the "hardcore" methods of some reputable schools are sick and fucking tired of getting **** on and harassed by the select few naturally gifted athletes that are so inclined to participate in "hardcore" schools. Career, family, injuries, money...any number of factors keep non "hardcore" martial artists in their respective non "hardcore" schools. We enjoy it, we pay for it, and we like the environment...SO WHO GIVES A FLYING **** if we aren't "hardcore"?

    On the other hand, the "shaved gorillas" that take lower paying jobs to make time for training, wake their "shavedness" up at 4 am to run 10 miles, and shell out a **** load of money for "hardcore" training probably get pretty fucking tired of fat soccer moms spouting about how deadly their olympic TKD is. They work their asses off to get to a certain physical/technical standard, then get dismissed by overconfident and deluded twerps that feel threatened by REAL athletes.

    Reminds me of a time when an ex-Airforce guy was telling me how rigorous and exhausting his Airforce boot camp was...and how overblown and pointless Marine Corps boot camp was.

    What the ****? I worked my ass off, I should get recognized! The assholes that don't give us credit should be put in their place, right?

    Then again, there are countless Marines that spew a never ending stream of self-exhibitionist bullshit and needlessly put down other branches.

    "Sure, devil dog, you survived enlist boot camp...but my "Fly Boy" ass has provided live fire security for over 10 years. Wanna see my scars, jarhead?"

    Basically, those of us that have serious issues with how other people practice NEED TO GROW THE **** UP.

    Yes, bullshit frauds need to get hurt.

    Sure, mystic cockspew that doesn't hold up to analysis needs to be exposed.

    Of course, people need to understand the proper avenues to pursue for what they're looking for, and not slavishly believe that Aikido will work in a Boxing match or that a Boxer doesn't need to learn grappling.

    But for those practitioners that seem to develop a serious facial twitch when they think about anything non (MMA/TMA/WWII/ABC/VHS), a tragic amount of maturation needs to develop.
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