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  1. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2006 10:18am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    Ok, you are entitled to your OPINION, but that doesn't make it fact :)
    In your opinion, with more detail please, why can a different punch, say a boxing punch, work where a WC punch cannot?
    WHY won't the mechanics for a WC punch work, in your experience, where other punches will?
    Are WC punches just the most unlucky punches on the planet or something, in your opinion?

    JP
    I understand that on a forum all we have are opinions, and the trouble is that lots of things can be argued adn sound valid; proof is something else. So I agree with you about fact -- or let's say evidence. Where are the _ing __un fighters that can hit powerfully while fighting? They don't exist. And that's because they can't hit powerfully while fighting.

    A punch isn't just a movement with your arm or the alignment of your fist, although those things are involved. Where the power comes from in a punch is the body, from body mechanics. _ing __un body mechanics are not boxing's body mechanics (do _ing __un people look like boxers?). Boxing's body mechanics take into account someone trying to hit them, takes into account defensive movement, opening angles for attacks, etc. The movement as a whole not only is for generating power but for avoiding getting hit, what I mean bu functional power. As an example, the karate reverse punch (hand on hip) is powerful, but not functional since the hand on the hip exposes them to attacks, so they can never get it off. It's functionally better to have your hands up for protection. The _ing __un punch, the chain punching, etc. might have power and might work if the guy just stands there, but he's not going to just stand there, and the mechanics of the chain punch will leave you exposed (since you can't move your head doing them, you can't keep your chin tucked, you are committed forward so you can't make quick changes of angle, etc.).

    I've seen and felt the _ing __un one inch punch. Yeah, it can be powerful. But no one is going to pull it off in a fight with anyone skilled (it's a parlor trick like breaking boards). They won't be able to set it up, his target won't be standing still, etc. You don't have to take my word for it -- if someone can do it, let's see it. Is that so much to ask? So far, we haven't seen anyone that can make that punch or chain punching work in fighting, against anyone good. It really comes down to evidence versus conjecture. People can keep saying it will work, it should work, it works for me, etc. but we never see any evidence of these things. Why? For the simple reason that no such evidence exists. With all the _ing __un people out there, why is there no evidence? For the simple reason, that it doesn't work.
  2. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2006 10:23am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    This is the biggest load of **** I've ever heard.

    You are telling me that you know I can't make a verticle fist punch work in a fight?
    Sure a vertical punch can work -- if a boxer throws it! ;) A punch isn't just the movment of the arm or alignment of the fist but gets its power from how the body moves. How the body moves in boxing is different than how the body moves in _ing __un. What's revealing is that when you see _ing __un people actually begin to spar, you begin to see how their body begins to move more like a boxer. That's because it's more functional to move that way.
  3. Southpaw is online now
    Southpaw's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2006 1:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me let you in on a secret...I was boxing 15 years before I ever knew what WC was. I know how a boxer moves...when I fight/spar...I tend to move like a boxer. And yes...I use WC.

    How you ask? Well...over many years of fighting, training, and finding out through experience what works and what doesn't...I have kept what I learned from various different places and gotten rid of what doesn't work for me. Crazy huh?

    That being said...let me assure you that I (and many other people) can make a "WC punch" work in application.
  4. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2006 1:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    Let me let you in on a secret...I was boxing 15 years before I ever knew what WC was. I know how a boxer moves...when I fight/spar...I tend to move like a boxer. And yes...I use WC.



    How you ask? Well...over many years of fighting, training, and finding out through experience what works and what doesn't...I have kept what I learned from various different places and gotten rid of what doesn't work for me. Crazy huh?



    That being said...let me assure you that I (and many other people) can make a "WC punch" work in application.
    When you make a WC punch, what parts of your body, would you say, resemble a boxer's stance, and what parts a WC stance?
  5. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2006 2:11pm


     Style: HFY WC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whybother
    I understand that on a forum all we have are opinions, and the trouble is that lots of things can be argued adn sound valid; proof is something else. So I agree with you about fact -- or let's say evidence. Where are the _ing __un fighters that can hit powerfully while fighting? They don't exist. And that's because they can't hit powerfully while fighting.

    A punch isn't just a movement with your arm or the alignment of your fist, although those things are involved. Where the power comes from in a punch is the body, from body mechanics. _ing __un body mechanics are not boxing's body mechanics (do _ing __un people look like boxers?). Boxing's body mechanics take into account someone trying to hit them, takes into account defensive movement, opening angles for attacks, etc. The movement as a whole not only is for generating power but for avoiding getting hit, what I mean bu functional power. As an example, the karate reverse punch (hand on hip) is powerful, but not functional since the hand on the hip exposes them to attacks, so they can never get it off. It's functionally better to have your hands up for protection. The _ing __un punch, the chain punching, etc. might have power and might work if the guy just stands there, but he's not going to just stand there, and the mechanics of the chain punch will leave you exposed (since you can't move your head doing them, you can't keep your chin tucked, you are committed forward so you can't make quick changes of angle, etc.).

    I've seen and felt the _ing __un one inch punch. Yeah, it can be powerful. But no one is going to pull it off in a fight with anyone skilled (it's a parlor trick like breaking boards). They won't be able to set it up, his target won't be standing still, etc. You don't have to take my word for it -- if someone can do it, let's see it. Is that so much to ask? So far, we haven't seen anyone that can make that punch or chain punching work in fighting, against anyone good. It really comes down to evidence versus conjecture. People can keep saying it will work, it should work, it works for me, etc. but we never see any evidence of these things. Why? For the simple reason that no such evidence exists. With all the _ing __un people out there, why is there no evidence? For the simple reason, that it doesn't work.
    Very 'interesting' views..

    So, if I understand this, in your view, in the 300+ years WC has been in existance, no-one has ever won a fight with it? And if they have, then are you saying that the opponents just stood there and let the WC guy hit them with thier devestating WC verticle punch and no other tools?
    Or maybe they all just got lucky?
    You can't be serious..

    Also, if I understand what you are saying, you know for a FACT that there are NO WC fighters, that "they don't exist." Why? Is it because you personally haven't seen physical evidence? (either in person or on a video - and not just the 'all-mighty end-all measurement' - sporting UFC, PRIDE, K1, etc).
    I would have to then ask you, have you met and seen every WC practitioner on this planet? I doubt it. How many have you actually seen in person, let alone spar with? one, two, maybe three? honestly now..
    It also seems you are implying that oboxing punches work where many other arts fail (you gave to examples already: WC and Karate). Also, that only boxing has actual fighting strategies for employing punches, unlike the above mentioned arts. Are you actually serious when you say this????
    Are you saying that WC doesn't train footwork, angles, interceptions, centerline, structures, timing, range, energy, strategy, tactics, etc? Maybe you don't really know much about WC, but those things sorta help somone get into a position where they can employ a verticle punch.

    It would be absured for ANYONE to think a WC person doesn't expect thier targets to move or resist. I am sorry to tell you, WC practitioners train more than just punching. Even though your implications are that the only tool they have is this devestating 'one-inch punch', and that the have no real strategy on how to make it work or apply it - other than on a punching bag or cooperative opponent... Why is it you think a boxer has the ability to land thier punches when a WC does not. What EXPERIENCE do you base this on???
    WHY do you say a WC guy can't pull off a verticle punch in a fight?? Because they don't know how?

    Just a note: in the early first half of the 20th century, boxers used what looks pretty much like a verticle punch with great effectiveness. And, there are plenty of pictures as well as some video showing this. But, maybe they all just got lucky..
    (and this has been already brought up a few times in this thread) Now, you might ask, why don't they still use this style of fighting? Well, rule changes for one, as well as glove 'size' (or even the addition of gloves), which makes it a lot harder to employ.

    You said "So far, we haven't seen anyone that can make that punch or chain punching work in fighting, against anyone good".
    Who is the "We" you speak of? every other non-WC practitioners on this planet? Or 'everyone else' on this board?
    And what is a 'good fighter' in your definition, since obviously you are the expert on everything non-wing chun?
    And, what do you mean by "haven't seen"? Do you mean on TV, or in person?

    My experience: I have seen WC work, and not just in 'demos'. I have felt it work. And believe it or not, I have experienced it - more than just seeing. And it deos have tools other than punching. But don't take my word for it.... :)
    And, if you really believe there are no WC guys that can fight, keep believeing it. I hope your very narrow view of the world doesn't get 'widened' for you one day when you go up against a 'good WC guy' as you'd put it ;)

    and, I ahve a final question: Do you ever just go back and reread your posts and actully understand how it is you sound when you talk/type like this? Just curious.

    haha, now this is some fun conversation! I am glad I gave you another chance. And even though I don't agree with your views or approaches most of the time, I don't mean anything personal, even if my post here is mostly directed toward you.

    JP
  6. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 5:00am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    JPinaz - just because a style has been around for a while doesn't mean that it must 'work' by definition -- the modern incarnation of a style is different to how it was then practiced -- and most MAs are really just dance and calisthenics.

    Having said that the WC punch isn't that different to a 'standard' boxing punch.

    In boxing the idea is to use weight transferrance from one side of the body to the other to generate power. In WC the idea tends to be linear -- a foot fall and linear punch timed together to get maximum power. Chain punching is done only to cover yourself when in the **** -- I never bother doing it. The side-to-side weight transferrance style punching is in WC too if you go looking for it.
  7. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2006 10:32am


     Style: HFY WC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    JPinaz - just because a style has been around for a while doesn't mean that it must 'work' by definition -- the modern incarnation of a style is different to how it was then practiced -- and most MAs are really just dance and calisthenics.
    I agree with you. Over time, something that might have once work very effectively and efficiently could very well have lost a large/small amount of the detail, sturcture, concepts, etc. Or, it could have simply changed/evolved. What 'once was' doesn't always stay that way. But there are many 'modern incarnations' of WC (to be style specific), a lot of which look different and others that look very similar. And there are also a few that claim to be closer to the traditional/original information ;)

    From what I have seen (and without having lived 300 years ago) and comparing what I study to other lineage of WC, I have found a lot, to be 'safe', different details and information that I didn't see in the few other versions of WC I've been in contact with. But again, this is just my own experience..
    (I know what kind of sparks that last comment might cause, especially due to the style I study, and I am in no way trying to compare effectiveness of systems, just speaking from my limited expereince with other systems and from research I have done.)
    For that matter, some things just get watered down over time if all the information isn't passed on to every student (regardless of the art/style)
    An example could be that telephone line game some might have played as a kid. I tell one person a story, he tells the next, and down the line. By the time it reaches the 20th person, that story sure does sound different from what was originally told, and could have a totally different meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Having said that the WC punch isn't that different to a 'standard' boxing punch.
    From a certain view, I can agree with you there too. Depends on the context you are making the comparison. When you get down to it, in the end, every punch is just a punch.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    In boxing the idea is to use weight transferrance from one side of the body to the other to generate power. In WC the idea tends to be linear -- a foot fall and linear punch timed together to get maximum power. Chain punching is done only to cover yourself when in the **** -- I never bother doing it. The side-to-side weight transferrance style punching is in WC too if you go looking for it.
    From my view the only thing I would add to your comment on the WC punch is also having correct structure, body alignment and angle with the timing of the hand and foot. (but I also realize you may have been making a quick comparison)
    I do feel a chain punch has it's time and place, even in an attack, if the opening for the initial punch is still there, you can take it. Similar to a 'boxing' 1-2 or longer combination. But I don't feel it can work or should be used as an entry technique.
    For me, I do something not because I chose to, but because I have to or the opportunity is there.

    JP
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 3/31/2006 10:38am at .
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