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  1. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 2:43pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude, you are hilarious!

    People can do whatever martial arts styles they like. They can become qi gong masters for all I care. I draw the line when they tell me that this crap produces good fighting skills. Why? Because it doesn't. And not because I say so, but because all the evidence - or lack thereof - shows it doesn't. I don't say _ing __un is crap because of some theory of mine but because the evidence shows that it is crap. It's the most widely practiced of kung fu styles, with millions practicing worldwide, and it hasn't produced one good fighter. What evidence do you need?

    So tell me, super genius that you are, why would someone that has practiced BJJ and seen good grappling, seen what it takes to be a good grappler, etc. switch to _ing __un antigrappling? Why would someone that was a decent boxer or MT fighter, seen good fighting, seen what sort of training it takes to be a decent fighter, switch to _ing __un or aikido or tai ji?
  2. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 2:44pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Show up at a Throwdown. Less talking. More manning up.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 2:47pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagon Akujin
    Here you go you retarded mother-fucker :bunny:

    And of course, the whole "your boxing wasn't REAL boxing", and yes there are like 20 more of these too:

    Since you only posted that to be prove how much of a masturbation toy you are for AIDS infested orangutans, I'll cut out the 30 or so other times it comes up.

    So again, your entire logic is that nobody who did th3 r3a1 bjj/mma/boxing/mt would switch to something else, so this is a million times worse than me saying you simply never saw th3 r2a1 _ing _un. And as far as me trying to act "above everything", I'm sorry that you can't see how fucking retarded this post has been for the past 46 pages-or-so pages. So I'm not trying to act "above everything", I'm trying not to be a retarded fucktwit like those who simply cannot believe anyone could choose anything besides the "arts" that you approve of.

    Forty-Jesus-Fucking-Nine! :spam4:

    Dagon Akujin
    Yes, you are trying to be above everything.

    When things didn't turn your way suddenly it was about someone not leaving Boxing to take WC.

    Lets forget all the discussion on the BS trapping, skill challenges, anti-grapple, and differences(or lack thereof)in punches between boxing and WC.

    Do what JNP said quit clicking to post it is easy.
  4. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 2:55pm


     Style: HFY WC

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whybother
    No. Boxing (or sparring in the ring) is fighting, at least a form of fighting. Just like grappling is a form, or subsection, of fighting. To say that you have trained in boxing does not make you a boxer; you become a boxer or fighter (do you see why they call boxers fighters?) by boxing, that is sparring in the ring. Of course you need to do the preparation work, develop the movement skills first. But the movement skills do not make you a boxer or fighter. Boxing/fighting is what makes you a fighter, since you can only develop fighting skills by fighting. The mechanics or movement skills that you learn will be tweaked and modified when you begin to fight; the initial movement skills are just a base from which to progress. You can't understand this until you experience it. And that's why you don't understand the mechanics until you turn them into fighting skills.

    It is really simple if you grasp that your fighting skill or ability (or boxing ability or grappling ability) is directly proportional to the time you spend in *quality* saprring. No quality sparring, no fighting ability. Limited quality sparring, limited fighting ability.

    So movement skills do not equal fighting skills. In fact, some movment skills have proven themselves to be not very effective fighting skills. Aikido "masters" look great in aikido demos and in their randori because they all all playing the same movement game, but they are not fighting. When they fight, they find those movements aren't effective. Similarly, the karate reverse punch works in demos, has great power in demos, it is a movement skill that some people develop to a very high degree. Trouble is, it just doesn't make a good, functional fighting skill. Same with _ing __un. How do I know? Because of the fact we haven't seen anyone that can make _ing __un work against decent competition. I'm not trying to attack you personally -- I'm trying to get you to see the distinction between movement skill and fighting skills, and to look at the evidence: that _ing __un hasn't produced any good fighters.




    It comes down to the distinction between movement skills and fighting skills. Lots of things are powerful in demo -- like the karate reverse punch. I'll bet you can't break huge chunks of ice with your _ing __un punch. Karate guys can with their reverse punch. But they don't work in fighting good people because that movement skill doesn't translate into functional power or functional fighting skill, at least at a decent level. It's the same with those TMA guys who "root" and think they can't be taken down. In demo, they look great and may be able to pull it off. In fighting, in a real wrestling situation, they'll see that their "rooting" won't translate to functional fighting skill and they'll end up on their ass. People who do not have experience fighting fall for movement skills (and believe they are fighting skills) because they look great, sound good, etc. But if you can't see it work in fighting, and against good people, the overwhelming odds are it is bullshido and won't work.

    If you want to do some research, look up (the story was in BB) the story of the MMA fighter that went to the Shaolin monestery to train. He said the monks there could do extraordinary things with their bodies (movement skills) that he couldn't even begin to do. Yet when he sparred with them, it was like taking candy from a baby! Because they had very poor fighting skills since they never sparred. And much of their movement skills, the things they show in their demos, are actually useless when they try to transfer them into fighting situations. In other words, they are wasting much of their time training if their goal is to be good fighters. They are spending loads of time and energy developing movement skills that are useless as fighting skills, and not doing the training that will develop fighitng skills.
    Ok, whatever you say. I can be a very powerful puncher and never have been in a fight. I can know all the mechanics of a punch without ever having been in a fight.
    It's that simple.
    I don't dissagree with you that sparring is the best way to hone your fighting skills (or even see if you have any). But you CAN learn how to throw technically proficient, powerful punches without sparring. And you CAN have an understanding of how they work without sparring.
    Example: there are many GOOD boxing coaches/instructors that understand the mechanics of a punch, can teach it, and can demonstrate it, but they admittedly were never 'great boxers' themselves. I've met a few of them.

    But, the discussion wasn't about fighting skills (as far as I remember), it was about whether or not WC can have a powerful/good/effective verticle punch.
    I say it can and does, from my experience in both WC and another punching art for comparrison. At least the WC I train anyway.. And much more-so than the previous WC I studied before switching to my current WC.
    End of story.
    It's hard to argue with someone else's experience.. Now, try and show them a new experience, that's something else..
    what's yours??

    JP
  5. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 3:01pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A powerful punch that you can't use in a fight is worthless. So the discussion isn't just about can a _ing __un punch be powerful, but can it be functionally powerful -- that is, make that power work in a fight. A karate reverse punch can be powerful (ever watch the breaking competitions?), a _ing __un punch may be able to be powerful. But that power won't be able to be generated in a fight, because the mechanics won't work when you are pressed, when the guy is moving, when he is trying to hit you, etc.
  6. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 4:16pm


     Style: HFY WC

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whybother
    A powerful punch that you can't use in a fight is worthless. So the discussion isn't just about can a _ing __un punch be powerful, but can it be functionally powerful -- that is, make that power work in a fight. A karate reverse punch can be powerful (ever watch the breaking competitions?), a _ing __un punch may be able to be powerful. But that power won't be able to be generated in a fight, because the mechanics won't work when you are pressed, when the guy is moving, when he is trying to hit you, etc.
    Ok, you are entitled to your OPINION, but that doesn't make it fact :)
    In your opinion, with more detail please, why can a different punch, say a boxing punch, work where a WC punch cannot?
    WHY won't the mechanics for a WC punch work, in your experience, where other punches will?
    Are WC punches just the most unlucky punches on the planet or something, in your opinion?

    JP
  7. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 6:07pm

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     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whybother
    A powerful punch that you can't use in a fight is worthless. So the discussion isn't just about can a _ing __un punch be powerful, but can it be functionally powerful -- that is, make that power work in a fight. A karate reverse punch can be powerful (ever watch the breaking competitions?), a _ing __un punch may be able to be powerful. But that power won't be able to be generated in a fight, because the mechanics won't work when you are pressed, when the guy is moving, when he is trying to hit you, etc.
    This is the biggest load of **** I've ever heard.

    You are telling me that you know I can't make a verticle fist punch work in a fight?
  8. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 6:19pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When you do or don't like a given technique, can we get a bit more description as to why? This is not a horizantal vs. vertical fist thing. The devil is in the details. Give details. Better yet, show up at a throwdown, bitches. Blah, blah, blah, kids...
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 6:25pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    This is the biggest load of **** I've ever heard.

    You are telling me that you know I can't make a verticle fist punch work in a fight?
    Actually, his point was no matter how well *you* might be able to make something work, he knows *you* can be infinitely better making something from Boxing or MT work - if what you want to do is fight...

    ... or something like that. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him. But, he actually makes some good points when he's not being so shrill. That only happens once every 20 posts or so, however. :smile:
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 3/29/2006 6:27pm at .
  10. Smeagol is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2006 8:52am


     Style: kickboxing, judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dagon Akujin:
    no one said "no one training in real boxing would switch to an unfunctional style like _ing _un" but "no one really training in boxing would switch to an unfunctional style like _ing _un"

    so your "R3a1 _ing _un" comparison is flawed
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