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  1. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 11:35am


     Style: HFY WC

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Well, there is training to box, and then there is boxing training. :smile: It seems like every gym in NYC offers a boxing class. Would anyone care to contrast a typical boxing class at the Women's Kosher Gym in Brooklyn versas, say, Gleason's Gym?


    Could you elaborate on the specifics of what your "several years" of boxing training entailed? That may make a difference in how your answers are interpreted.


    (Side note: Church Street Boxing Gym in Manhattan has the best adverts: a picture of a real knarly looking sweaty face with the caption: "FACE IT! Your gym sucks.")
    Either way (training to box, or boxing training), both can teach someone the mechanics behind a 'good' punch, whether it is a jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc.

    My several years of boxing was a combination of both I guess. I started out as a kid under the instruction of my grandpa who was g.glovs as well as diamond belt champ 'back in the day'.
    When I got older, I wanted to get in better shape, so I guess I started back with 'boxing training' whcih was training the fundamentals - footwork, bag work, technique, building endurance and stamina, etc.. But then that could be considered training to box too couldn't it?
    From there I started sparring against others in my gym as well as with others in different gyms.

    Regardless what I 'trained for', I still feel I have/had a good punch, knew the mechanics of the punches, and could apply them effectively. I feel I know what a good boxing punch is.

    JP
  2. whybother is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 12:02pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    Either way (training to box, or boxing training), both can teach someone the mechanics behind a 'good' punch, whether it is a jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc.

    My several years of boxing was a combination of both I guess. I started out as a kid under the instruction of my grandpa who was g.glovs as well as diamond belt champ 'back in the day'.
    When I got older, I wanted to get in better shape, so I guess I started back with 'boxing training' whcih was training the fundamentals - footwork, bag work, technique, building endurance and stamina, etc.. But then that could be considered training to box too couldn't it?
    From there I started sparring against others in my gym as well as with others in different gyms.

    Regardless what I 'trained for', I still feel I have/had a good punch, knew the mechanics of the punches, and could apply them effectively. I feel I know what a good boxing punch is.

    JP
    This is what you fail to understand -- there is movement skill, that's mechanics, techniques, etc. and what is trypically shown in demos (particularly by bullshido artists). Then there is fighting skill, which is different than movement skill but includes movement skill (you need to be able to do a spinning heel kick, the movement, well before you can try to put it into fighting). You only develop fighting skill by fighting. Boxing is more than movement skills (how to jab, cross, etc.), it is the ability to box, to fight. You only get that from sparring. Sure you need the movement skills, that is a prerequisite, but alone they mean nothing. You need to take your mechanics and make them work in sparring, and that's a very difficult step. Until you can do that, you don't know how to box and you really don't understand the mechanics (because fighting changes things). Now, not all movement skills can become good fighting skills -- that's why many bullshido arts have "masters" that look great in demo (because they have well-developed movement skills, like the aikido masters) but those movements will not translate into fighting skills, at least against anyone good. _ing __un people have never successfully used their movement skills in fighting, against decent competition. Just as aikido people haven't. And the reason is that those movement skills don't translate into good fighting skills.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 12:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    I've sparred/boxed with plenty of good boxers before I started in WC, so I guess that qualifies my previous experience of 'non-WC punches' (and judgement as you put it).
    Your sparring is growing exponentially. When you first started posting you only sparred in your gym. Now that you have gotten your E-penis wet , you are sparring good boxers before WC.

    That is what I mean by undercover. Slowly and surely your alleged dojo's prowess is growing.

    That is why I'm waiting for you to say you sparred with UFC/Pride/K-1 fighters.
  4. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 12:47pm


     Style: HFY WC

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    Quote Originally Posted by whybother
    This is what you fail to understand -- there is movement skill, that's mechanics, techniques, etc. and what is trypically shown in demos (particularly by bullshido artists). Then there is fighting skill, which is different than movement skill but includes movement skill (you need to be able to do a spinning heel kick, the movement, well before you can try to put it into fighting). You only develop fighting skill by fighting. Boxing is more than movement skills (how to jab, cross, etc.), it is the ability to box, to fight. You only get that from sparring. Sure you need the movement skills, that is a prerequisite, but alone they mean nothing. You need to take your mechanics and make them work in sparring, and that's a very difficult step. Until you can do that, you don't know how to box and you really don't understand the mechanics (because fighting changes things). Now, not all movement skills can become good fighting skills -- that's why many bullshido arts have "masters" that look great in demo (because they have well-developed movement skills, like the aikido masters) but those movements will not translate into fighting skills, at least against anyone good. _ing __un people have never successfully used their movement skills in fighting, against decent competition. Just as aikido people haven't. And the reason is that those movement skills don't translate into good fighting skills.
    Ok, I guess I will give this/you just one more try - Mainly because you approached your post in a non-personal, non-attacking way. Hopefully my point was taken in my last post. If it veers back to the attacking nature you repeatedly demonstrate, itís over. Fair enough?

    I donít feel I missed your point at all. I agree with you 100%. ĎTrainingí for boxing isnít the same as Ďfight experienceí Ė thatís boxing. If you read my reply post to Tom, youíll see I said I have done BOTH. I trained, and Iíve sparred. I hope youíre not saying though that you only need the sparring, because I feel that would be a very long process. Without the fundamentals drilling outside the ring, one will struggle a LOT more inside the ring trying to get things to work. Thatís trial and error. Itís the focused, constrained excersizes in the gym - outside the ring - that give you the initial understanding of the mechanics and theory, as well as the body karma to be able to express that knowledge. Itís in the ring where you test this understanding against a live, resisting opponent.

    Back to the subject, I still donít believe you HAVE to step into a ring to know whether or not you understand the mechanics of a punch and whether or not itís a hard or powerful punch. IMO, itís in the ring is where you find out if you can apply it in a fight (and, I do feel one needs that experience too).
    So, regardless of my ring skills (which werenít too shabby) I feel I do understand the mechanics of a good boxing punch, and I feel I can demonstrate this knowledge Ė all based on my experience. Likewise with a WC punch. And, it is my experience, that even though I feel I have one hell-of-a good boxing punch, I found even better results with the correctly structured WC punch I have learned since then. And, Iíve done the comparisons.

    JP
  5. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 12:57pm


     Style: HFY WC

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Your sparring is growing exponentially. When you first started posting you only sparred in your gym. Now that you have gotten your E-penis wet , you are sparring good boxers before WC.

    That is what I mean by undercover. Slowly and surely your alleged dojo's prowess is growing.

    That is why I'm waiting for you to say you sparred with UFC/Pride/K-1 fighters.
    I think you are mis-reading what I have been saying. Actually, I don't remember ever commenting one-way-or-the other about what sparing I personally have done with WC inside the kwoon - and I have a very good reason for that (and maybe I did, but you'd have to show me, because I don't remember doing so). What I have been saying regarding sparring with WC is that I DO intend to do it outside the kwoon in the near future.

    I never claimed I 'haven't sparred' in anything else before I trained WC. I have been very open from day one that I have boxed prior to WC. *** edit *** - yes, I have said I boxed against 'good boxers'. I never once stated the outcome one-way or the other :)
    I am just trying to show that I am speaking from more than opinion or theory - I base my thoughts on my own personal experiences.

    The only way my "alleged dojo's prowess" has grown is by misunderstandings on your part (and/or that of others). PLease don't put words in my mouth, I feel I am very clear in what I say here.

    To keep the conversation on track, I have a question for you: what's your opinion, based on your own personal expereince, regarding the effectiveness of a boxing punch vs. WC punch, what's your opinion, and why?
    (if you already have stated these things, and I have forgotten, I appologize. Could you please repost to refresh my memory if so?)

    JP
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 3/29/2006 1:15pm at .
  6. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 1:22pm

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    What about a VT punch, aren't those good?
  7. JPinAZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 1:30pm


     Style: HFY WC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    What about a VT punch, aren't those good?
    For me, I have no idea, I only have experience with what I have learned. I hav never personally even seen a 'VT punch'.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 1:30pm

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    I'm putting words in your mouth??????


    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    I never once commented as to the callibre of the people I've sparred with prior to WC - good or bad. So, I don't know where you got it that I said I have spared with 'good boxers' OR bad
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    I've sparred/boxed with plenty of good boxers before I started in WC
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    PLease don't put words in my mouth, I feel I am very clear in what I say here...
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    I've sparred/boxed with plenty of good boxers before I started in WC

    Seriously, are you drunk?
  9. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 1:35pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ
    And, since you asked, let me ask you: have you sparred against 'good WC' practitioners that use structured vertical/WC punches?
    I have sparred against -ing -un people, but I don't know if they would qualify as 'good' -ing -un guys as they seemed to be static in their attacks. My boxer's stance and the jab I favor seemed to give them a lot of trouble. I guess I wouldn't consider these individuals as good MA practitioners in general because of the holes in their standup game.

    I think the idea of trapping is a cool one. Unfortunately the trapping practitioners that I have encountered that do use it have not been able to translate trapping into an actually effective fighting technique. Your mileage may vary.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  10. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2006 1:49pm


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    48 Pages of Butt-Fuckery and Still Counting!!?!??!

    And now the logic of this conversation has become: "You never did REAL Boxing because nobody that ever did REAL Boxing would afterwards switch to something else that they liked more and found to work better for them." Yea for mother-fucking logic.

    So if someone ever switch from BJJ or MMA to anything else then they never did "REAL" BJJ or MMA? This is exponentially stupider than saying that maybe you've just never seen the REAL _ing _un.

    I could offer some more points here that actually make sense and have a point, but I'd rather just tell you all that we really need to shut the **** up and move along.

    Godfuckingdamnit.

    Dagon Akujin

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