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  1. Captain Spaulding is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:15am


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boxing is a martial art.

    And there is a difference between respect and formalism. One comes from within, the other from without. My old TKD teacher used to say, "There's no real need for a lot of ceremony and bowing and titles. If you respect someone, all the ceremony is unnecessary. If you don't respect them, bowing and calling them master isn't going to change that."
  2. DArnold is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    How can you learn respect if you do not have a skill deserving of respect?

    Personally, I think the "respect," end of it is overly ritualistic. Parts of it exist to control conflict and direct training, but others interfere with the ability to *actually* respect somebody, because you can't cross hands without a bunch of garbage coming up. I'd rather try somebody out and learn to respect them then instead of pretending to respect them.
    This is in no way meant in a bad way but is what you are saying that you only respect someone if they can kick your A$$. If not you don't?

    I respect rank but this is different from respecting the person as many times the person does not have knowledge, capability...
    The respect shows what type of person I am.
    If I can not controll myself what does that show?
  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:27am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DArnold
    This is in no way meant in a bad way but is what you are saying that you only respect someone if they can kick your A$$. If not you don't?

    I respect rank but this is different from respecting the person as many times the person does not have knowledge, capability...
    The respect shows what type of person I am.
    If I can not controll myself what does that show?
    I already give normal people that respect. I don't really need martial arts to teach me how to not be a total bastard.
  4. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:27am

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DArnold
    This is in no way meant in a bad way but is what you are saying that you only respect someone if they can kick your A$$. If not you don't?

    I respect rank but this is different from respecting the person as many times the person does not have knowledge, capability...
    The respect shows what type of person I am.
    If I can not controll myself what does that show?
    No, I believe what he's saying is that you cannot be taught respect by the rituals inherent in many martial arts. You earn respect through actions and show of character. Respect is like an emotion, it can't be taught.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  5. Jitsuman is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:29am


     Style: BJJ, TKD, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DArnold
    Captain Spaulding,
    Glad to meet you.

    Some have misread my question as I/or my students have no problem fighting or defending ourselves anywhere.
    Some would turn this into an issue of my style is better than your style which is just a junior state of mind, as any martial art when practiced enough is dangerious.

    Most all old martial arts were developed as a physical form of spiritul meditation. And isn't the way of the true warrior, Not that you fought a thousand fights and won, but that you had the ability to fight a thousand fights and did not. Do people ever study "The art of war" and the old teachings of those who fouded what they are practicing?

    So what your saying is that you can remove the other aspects and just fight, and still call something an Art. Granted I agree with Boxing, Dancing, Football... all as an art, but not a Martial Art.

    Does this also not only limit what you do to the young and exclude children and older people.

    And when you get older and age starts to take its course then you are no longer a Martial Artist because you cant kick A$$?
    1. You and your students can defend yourselves anywhere? ha ha fucking ha. How do you know this exactly? As I have a BB in TKD and I fully admit that it is not a very good art for self defense, it seems we reached totally different conclusions. How many actual fights have you and your students been in? How many wins and losses? How many objective MMA style competitions have you or your students won? You say you can defend yourself in any situation, at any range? Try rolling with a half decent judoka, BJJ player, or wrestler and you'll find out how wrong you are. TKD is not exactly a well rounded art, end of story.

    2. Wrong, most "martial" (Look up what 'martial' pertains to) arts were not developed for spiritual reasons, morality, meditation, Etc. You are plain ol' misinformed.

    3. "Not that you fought a thousand fights and won, but that you had the ability to fight a thousand fights and did not" Get this weak ass psuedo-philosophy out of my face. You sound like a dip-**** choking on a hippy's cock.

    4. Boxing is much more of a martial art than TKD. If you had a fucking clue you'd know what Pankration is, and how Roman Soldiers incorperated boxing into it as their un-armed stand up fighting style. Boxing is thousands of years older than TKD. Not to mention thousands of times more effective. I've trained in both for long periods of time, there is no contest.

    5. Children and older people can fight too. Come down to any gym/dojo/MA academy that spars hard, and tell the old timers there that they can't fight because they're too old. Good luck with that pal! Some of the baddest fuckers I've trained with were over 60.

    EDIT: wow I just re-read that and I'm an asshole. Sorry :icon_twis
    Last edited by Jitsuman; 1/03/2006 1:32am at .
  6. DArnold is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:46am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Respect

    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    No, I believe what he's saying is that you cannot be taught respect by the rituals inherent in many martial arts. You earn respect through actions and show of character. Respect is like an emotion, it can't be taught.
    Kidspatula,

    May I just say that that is one disturbing picture you have!

    But back to the subject. I agree with you that respect must be earned everyday.
    Just like I was taught that every time you put your belt on you had to earn it.

    But what you are saying "can not be taught" is what most all arts expound as what they can teach, espically kids?

    Respect is what I do for myself but I did not know this genetically. It was taught to me when I was young.

    I never respected anyone who could kick my A$$, all that meant is they were better than me at the time. And there will always be someone that is better than you!

    I only respected those who taught me to be better.
    Last edited by DArnold; 1/03/2006 1:51am at .
  7. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:50am

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DArnold
    Kidspatula,

    May I just say that that is one disturbing picture you have!

    But back to the subject, What you are saying "can not be taught" is what most all arts expound as what they can teach kids? Respect is what I do for myself but I did not know this genetically. It was taught to me when I was young. I never respected anyone who could kick my A$$. I only respected those who taught me to be better.

    kicking ass just happens to be the focus of martial arts. Respect is often garnered from excelling in whatever it is that you do. In the context of martial arts, respect can be garnered with the ability to perform well in the martial arts (BY WHICH I MEAN KICKING ASS).
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  8. Captain Spaulding is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:51am


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He means (I think) that respect is something that cannot be imposed on you. You choose to respect someone or something. No one can make you respect them. They can make you act like you do. But the respect itself comes from you or not at all.

    And learning to kick ass, as you put it, is the primary mission and purpose of martial arts. Everything else is secondary. If not for the combative aspects of martial arts, there is no reason for them to exist. All other potential benefits can just as easily be gained through some other method or practice.
    Last edited by Captain Spaulding; 1/03/2006 1:57am at .
  9. NinjaWannabe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 10:29am


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So there’s kind of two different discussions going on here. DArnold, If you are into training your students (especially the younger ones) to have respect, be courteous, and that kind of stuff, good for you. There’s not enough of that in the world, and It sure seems that MA can be a good vehicle for such lessons. That being said, I do think you are a little misguided as to that being the purpose of MA. The idea of the “Noble Warrior” is cool and all, but it’s really not the case. Seriously, history is way uglier than we like to admit, and warriors were just that; guys who were really good at war. I’m a bit of a medieval buff myself, and the one common misconception that is very prevalent is that of the noble and virtuous knight. It simply was not the case. They were thugs who spent most of their time acting as tax collectors and burning homes. Not the pretty picture we like to paint, right? Well, that’s just the way it was. So, while teaching virtues to kids is important and using MA as a vehicle to do so seems to work well for you, you should be a little more realistic as to the real purpose of MA.

    As for respect, wouldn’t you say that on a base, emotional level respect is born of fear? Granted, as people get older intellect comes into play as well, but don’t we respect something because we fear it a little bit?
  10. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 10:44am

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    if you are not teaching your students to be able to kick ass (as a fact) and are leaving them with the impression that they can, then you have no ethics. and thus have no basis to be teaching them a moral code of any kind.

    on respect:

    "The heart of our karate is real fighting. There can be no proof without real fighting.
    Without proof there is no trust. Without trust there is no respect. This is a definition in the world of Martial Arts." - Mas Oyama
    Last edited by MaverickZ; 1/03/2006 10:46am at .
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