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  1. DArnold is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:24am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What is your opinion

    Dear New Brothers and Sisters in Martial Arts,
    I wanted to get some opinions from you.

    The last BBS system I was on was strictly TKD-ITF (And all they do is trash each other) Here an instructor had posted that the level of Black Belt was strictly related to how well you could defend yourself or kick someones A$$.

    Most all seemed to accept this which blew me away. When I told them that kicking someones A$$ was not the purpose of any martial art they could not believe me. To which they replied "What else is a MA for?"

    They went on and on about how self-defense was the end-all-be-all of any MA. I told them self-defense has to be learned but it was only a minor part of MA training and what we are about. All day I have been having a flash back to when "The Karate Kid" first came out and everyone used to bring in their kids wanting me to teach them how to kick someone elses butt. This put me over the top and I was ashamed to be associated with "these" TKD people.

    From most history I have read the MA's were associated with so much more, like how to heal someone, help someone, make them a better person, pass on knowledge... (Granted most organizations have a lofty code of ethics that get subverted by $$)

    From my upbringing I was taught that the physical side of the art was only half and the tenets of the art were the other half: Courtsey, Integrity, Perserverence, Indomitable Spirt, Self Controll. Also, that teaching someone how to kill another person when they do not have the proper mental ability is like putting a gun in a whacko's hand.

    As an instructor I do want my students to be able to defend themselves (As I still like being beaten into the ground by a hard work out as much as I did when I was 18). But I care much more for them as how they develop as a Human Beings. Beyond this, I look for intangables in my students like moral culture, trust, ethics, honesty, reliability, self discipline...
    as well as the ability to kick and punch.

    When talking about the McDojo aspect I have come to realize that there are a lot of good people out there that don't have a clue about what I am talking about. For a miriad of reasons: no one to show them the way, looking for rank instead of knowledge, the way they were raised, their cup is already full... Many believe that whatever the organization sets as the minimum testing time is is all you need to do to get promoted.

    After my long winded problem, I guess my question is, "Do any of you look for/test these traits before you promote students?"

    Or, have the arts just turned into Kicking A$$?
  2. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DArnold
    Dear New Brothers and Sisters in Martial Arts,
    I wanted to get some opinions from you.

    The last BBS system I was on was strictly TKD-ITF (And all they do is trash each other) Here an instructor had posted that the level of Black Belt was strictly related to how well you could defend yourself or kick someones A$$.

    Most all seemed to accept this which blew me away. When I told them that kicking someones A$$ was not the purpose of any martial art they could not believe me. To which they replied "What else is a MA for?"

    They went on and on about how self-defense was the end-all-be-all of any MA. I told them self-defense has to be learned but it was only a minor part of MA training and what we are about. All day I have been having a flash back to when "The Karate Kid" first came out and everyone used to bring in their kids wanting me to teach them how to kick someone elses butt. This put me over the top and I was ashamed to be associated with "these" TKD people.

    From most history I have read the MA's were associated with so much more, like how to heal someone, help someone, make them a better person, pass on knowledge... (Granted most organizations have a lofty code of ethics that get subverted by $$)

    From my upbringing I was taught that the physical side of the art was only half and the tenets of the art were the other half: Courtsey, Integrity, Perserverence, Indomitable Spirt, Self Controll. Also, that teaching someone how to kill another person when they do not have the proper mental ability is like putting a gun in a whacko's hand.

    As an instructor I do want my students to be able to defend themselves (As I still like being beaten into the ground by a hard work out as much as I did when I was 18). But I care much more for them as how they develop as a Human Beings. Beyond this, I look for intangables in my students like moral culture, trust, ethics, honesty, reliability, self discipline...
    as well as the ability to kick and punch.

    When talking about the McDojo aspect I have come to realize that there are a lot of good people out there that don't have a clue about what I am talking about. For a miriad of reasons: no one to show them the way, looking for rank instead of knowledge, the way they were raised, their cup is already full... Many believe that whatever the organization sets as the minimum testing time is is all you need to do to get promoted.

    After my long winded problem, I guess my question is, "Do any of you look for/test these traits before you promote students?"

    Or, have the arts just turned into Kicking A$$?


    BIG flaw in all this crap you just wrote ... TKD does not kick ass ...not to mention that your rank in TKD .. has very little to do with kicking ass its almost purely based on Forms and craptastic slap tag fests for points . Occasionaly they will add some silly board breaking .. but from what I have seen its point sparring and atleast an hours worth of forms .

    your wrong .. just not why you assume you are .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  3. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:36am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If TKD was all about kicking ass, then there would actually be much less bullshido in TKD. It's sad that the majority of TKD, a kicking art, can't even claim to kick ass.

    The morality, the Moodo you assume, is not inherent in the martial art, it is brought to it. You mentioned putting a gun in someone's hands.

    Yes, a good martial arts instructor will try to impart that moral code to his students, that they are not to use their art for harmful ends, but this is not inherent in martial art. It is ethics, plain and simple.
  4. D Dempsey is offline
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    Monkey Knife Fight!

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that rank in martial arts, any martial art, should be directly related to your ability to fight. Martial arts are about fighting. That's it.
  5. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    there should be a big banner on every page that says something to the effect of "YES, MARTIAL ARTS ARE ABOUT FIGHTING. PERIOD. TAKE YOUR HIPPY "WAY OF LIFE" BULLSHIT AND CRAM IT UP YOUR CHI LOVING ASS."
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  6. Captain Spaulding is offline

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    hmm... it's awful dark in here
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:43am


     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Y'know, I never thought I'd see anyone else from the ITF-Online forum here. Small world.

    After having listened to these arguments back and forth for years, I think it comes down to this: fighting (or, at the least, self-defense) is the only component of martial arts that one cannot remove and have martial arts retain their character.

    You can take away things like moral guidance, semi-religious philosophy, or the tenets and what you are left with is still martial arts. However, if you remove the fighting aspects, it ceases to be a martial art and becomes something else. This is as true of TKD as of any martial art.

    And while I personally think that martial arts should be more than just learning to fight, that is what most everything else is based upon.
  7. P-Dub is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 12:45am


     Style: MT, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DArnold
    Or, have the arts just turned into Kicking A$$?
    A common theme you'll come across if you explore this site is that the way a lot of arts are practiced has turned into NOT kicking ass, and that is what is considered BS.
    Last edited by P-Dub; 1/03/2006 12:48am at .
  8. DArnold is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:03am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Spaulding
    Y'know, I never thought I'd see anyone else from the ITF-Online forum here. Small world.

    After having listened to these arguments back and forth for years, I think it comes down to this: fighting (or, at the least, self-defense) is the only component of martial arts that one cannot remove and have martial arts retain their character.

    You can take away things like moral guidance, semi-religious philosophy, or the tenets and what you are left with is still martial arts. However, if you remove the fighting aspects, it ceases to be a martial art and becomes something else. This is as true of TKD as of any martial art.

    And while I personally think that martial arts should be more than just learning to fight, that is what most everything else is based upon.
    Captain Spaulding,
    Glad to meet you.

    Some have misread my question as I/or my students have no problem fighting or defending ourselves anywhere.
    Some would turn this into an issue of my style is better than your style which is just a junior state of mind, as any martial art when practiced enough is dangerious.

    Most all old martial arts were developed as a physical form of spiritul meditation. And isn't the way of the true warrior, Not that you fought a thousand fights and won, but that you had the ability to fight a thousand fights and did not. Do people ever study "The art of war" and the old teachings of those who fouded what they are practicing?

    So what your saying is that you can remove the other aspects and just fight, and still call something an Art. Granted I agree with Boxing, Dancing, Football... all as an art, but not a Martial Art.

    Does this also not only limit what you do to the young and exclude children and older people.

    And when you get older and age starts to take its course then you are no longer a Martial Artist because you cant kick A$$?
    Last edited by DArnold; 1/03/2006 1:08am at .
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:08am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Most old martial arts were not founded as spiritual ways. That is a load of hocus pocus that has been fed to Westerners.

    Some did evolve into spiritual ways as such, but the only reason a martial art ever developed was for one reason only. Combat.

    I have read the "Art of War", "5 Rings", etc...this was my major in college.
  10. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 1:09am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can you learn respect if you do not have a skill deserving of respect?

    Personally, I think the "respect," end of it is overly ritualistic. Parts of it exist to control conflict and direct training, but others interfere with the ability to *actually* respect somebody, because you can't cross hands without a bunch of garbage coming up. I'd rather try somebody out and learn to respect them then instead of pretending to respect them.
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