Why I don't give a crap about how "hardcore" your school is anymore

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 7:46pm

Originally Posted by LORD ASIA

You are obviously ignorant of the history of many of the pple I posted. I already stated that several of them were sickly and frail in their youth, some up to their teen years, and changed that by training hard.

You are enlightened.

Nah, that's not it either. I'm well aware of Jigoro Kano's bio, have and some knowledge of Mifune (and moaning about how frail they were in their youth misses the boat historically, to boot). And of course, Japan's deliberate attempt to remodel itself as an Imperialist, militarist regime in the Western model helped emphasize hard training. Despite Kano's supposed anti-militarist stance, the timeline doesn't jibe. See:

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_abe_0600.htm

Militarism of the physical education system was already well under way, and not in the nice citizen-soldier sense. Lots and lots of martial artists there went through the narrative of being sickly (because their government was economically incompetent and society medically ignorant) and then powerful (as they plugged into nationalist interests along with their reputations). This was true for Ueshiba too, as a matter of fact, and a whole gaggle of martial artists aside from him -- because it was really common for the Japanese, period.

Mentioning people belonging to family traditions (like Royler) is kind of silly, since growing up in a family that teaches effective martial arts will naturally provide the progressive training I'm talking about.

The former examples are not something we really ought to emulate. The latter are family ties unavailable to the majority. The ones that don't easily fit into either do not really make a significant difference. There will always be people who have talent that is obvious beforehand. There will always be those who have talent that just requires the correct stimulus, too, but it's still talent.

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 7:47pm

Originally Posted by BigNinjaPimp

Yeah, look at Bruce Lee. In his youth he was slightly overweight and weak.

Uh, no. In his youth he was a competitive dancer and boxer.

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 7:57pm

Eyebeams,

If I understand you correctly you are saying that as a mature 33 years old with kids, and responsibilities that you don't find the Hard Core training you once did to be that big a deal.

That's because you're an adult. Unlike many here who think that either you go hard core or F'off, who are as delusional as LARP's in that they think what they do matters or is impressive in the larger scheme of things.

The only people hard core training is truly relevant to are:

Professions fighters (or those who training to be)
People in the Military
People in Law enforcement
and People in security (bouncers and that sort)

That's not to say people shouldn't train hard core if they want to, just stop being dicks about it, because then you're doing it for an ego boost and it's sad.

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 8:10pm

Originally Posted by Bud Shi Dist

Hey dumbass.... Lungs are part of the cardiovascular system.

No.

Cardio = heart; vascular = blood vessels.

Lungs = Respiratory System.

**eyebeams** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 8:12pm

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

Eyebeams,

If I understand you correctly you are saying that as a mature 33 years old with kids, and responsibilities that you don't find the Hard Core training you once did to be that big a deal.

That's because you're an adult. Unlike many here who think that either you go hard core or F'off, who are as delusional as LARP's in that they think what they do matters or is impressive in the larger scheme of things.

The only people hard core training is truly relevant to are:

Professions fighters (or those who training to be)
People in the Military
People in Law enforcement
and People in security (bouncers and that sort)

That's not to say people shouldn't train hard core if they want to, just stop being dicks about it, because then you're doing it for an ego boost and it's sad.

Sort of, but the other thing I think is sometimes lacking is a way to progressively add those valuable, difficult elements of training. I *do* think that you should be a competent fighter if you make any claim to teach an effective fighting method, and I *do* think that you have to sweat out significant conditioning and sparring demands. On the other hand, I think that there is a way to help a broader group get to that point. Using my own experience as a guide, I think that's possible and desireable, but I'm not sure the will is really there to explore it.

The irony, of course is that a good method that takes someone from low fitness to the kind of intensity that's a prerequisite for success would benefit everybody. Tough schools would fix their retention problems and prosper, and McDojos would be able to profit without such an emphasis on contracts.

I believe that my current teacher has a talent for just this sort of thing, and it's why I'm with him after a haitus. The crosstraining I do with a local BJJer is also shaping my opinion, since it seems that without the nutriding, they do this kind of thing pretty well, too.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 8:15pm

Originally Posted by eyebeams

Nah, that's not it either. I'm well aware of Jigoro Kano's bio, have and some knowledge of Mifune (and moaning about how frail they were in their youth misses the boat historically, to boot). And of course, Japan's deliberate attempt to remodel itself as an Imperialist, militarist regime in the Western model helped emphasize hard training. Despite Kano's supposed anti-militarist stance, the timeline doesn't jibe. See:

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_abe_0600.htm

Militarism of the physical education system was already well under way, and not in the nice citizen-soldier sense. Lots and lots of martial artists there went through the narrative of being sickly (because their government was economically incompetent and society medically ignorant) and then powerful (as they plugged into nationalist interests along with their reputations). This was true for Ueshiba too, as a matter of fact, and a whole gaggle of martial artists aside from him -- because it was really common for the Japanese, period.

Mentioning people belonging to family traditions (like Royler) is kind of silly, since growing up in a family that teaches effective martial arts will naturally provide the progressive training I'm talking about.

The former examples are not something we really ought to emulate. The latter are family ties unavailable to the majority. The ones that don't easily fit into either do not really make a significant difference. There will always be people who have talent that is obvious beforehand. There will always be those who have talent that just requires the correct stimulus, too, but it's still talent.

You still miss the overall point.

Yes there are pple who will are naturals but there are those who have to work hard to be good. You think every gracie is a world champ? Nope. So Royler is valid. Family alone doesn't make automaticly geared to one activity as opposed to another. Lela and Brandon did well follwoing in their repective fathers footsteps but Jarett isn't doing te well folloing his dad.

**feedback** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 8:30pm

Originally Posted by Bud Shi Dist

Hey dumbass.... Lungs are part of the cardiovascular system.

:911flag:

**feedback** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 8:31pm

Originally Posted by eyebeams

Uh, no. In his youth he was a competitive dancer and boxer.

He was really really tiny though, in sickly shape.

**Lane** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 10:12pm

Originally Posted by The Limey

You're spot on there. BUT what do you do when that golfer starts telling you his the golf training program he sells will also turn you into an all star linebacker?

There is nothing at all wrong with the no contact point fighting, kata heavy school UNTIL that school starts telling people they are learning to fight. And what bullshido is all about is helping people understand the difference between training as a hobby and training for a fight/self-defense situation.

If all you feel comfortable doing is no contact sparring, good for you. That's your choice. I don't think any less of you. But don't even think for a second that gives you the right to **** all over people who get hit in training for being "mindless shaved gorillas". They train hard and deserve respect for doing what you're not willing/capable of doing. On the flip side, those "mindless shaved gorillas" shouldn't be shitting all over the non-contact types because fighting is a daunting thing for most people to face - unless those non-contact people start preaching that they're learning how to be good fighters.

I also worry about the non-contact types being given a false sense of security because of teachers who mislead them into thinking they are capable of defending themselves against a determined attacker. Perhaps the natrual reaction of the TKD soccar mum is to run away...but thinking that she can fight a rapist off she makes kicking his ass her first priority instead of doing everything she can do to run away because she has an over inflated sense of belief in her fighting abilities. The rapist might go to jail but that woman's life has been irrevocably changed because she got raped. And the worst part is that her teacher keeps on deluding other people into thinking they can defend themselves.

Sure that non-contact training will give you a better chance than no training in situations when fighting is your only option but in my experience it leads to people thinking they can take on more than they really can.

I still cringe every time I see a girl with a Tae Bo tape because of all those women in the TV ads talking about how they feel empowered and can now defend themselves. Idiots like Billy Blanks spewing bullshit propeganda like that should be dragged kicking and screaming into the octagon to proove their **** works. Then they should be forced to make infomercials telling the world that their Tae Bo **** is crap in a fight but will still get you into shape.

And yes, before someone mentions it, being trained in a "shaved gorilla school" will also inflate your beliefs that you can defend yourself. BUT that fact that you get hit/slammed on the ground every class by bigger/meaner/stronger/faster/more skilled opponents will *in general* give you a more realistic assessment of your skills and give you better tools to defend yourself with when you're too stupid to run away...or when running isn't an option.

Oh, agreed wholeheartedly. And unfortunately, these types of teachers are in the majority. And these people can be educated, of course. But there is a small amount of people like myself who, while enjoying the MMA and hard training world immensely, realize that there are certain constraints that prevent us from taking that path (like my career). I can't show up to law school or my eventual job as a lawyer and maintain the type of training schedule that real martial arts training requires. I wish I'd win the lottery so that I could. So I'll have to settle for a reasonable substitute, but you won't catch me saying I can take on one of the Gracies with my mad judo skills.

**mean_liar** · Posted On: 1/02/2006 10:52pm

Originally Posted by Cullion

Maybe the wrong thread to ask this, but what actually happens to a persons body as their 'cardio' improves with training ?

I accept that it must be partly to do with gradually developing more efficient technique and a higher psychological tolerance to the demands of the training, but there must be a lot going on physically, yet AIUI lung capacity really is fixed by genetics.

The term you're looking for is 'VO2 max'. Its a measurement of how effeciently your body utilizes oxygen and is utilized by endurance athletes' training teams to determine how effective training regimes are for their charges.

Googling the term will certainly give good results.