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  1. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 5:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your conditioning is poor!!! Sleep mortal!!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  2. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 5:45pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    There is certainly a moderate position between "A big strong oponent is still a challenge to a person with training" and "You are arguing against the need for your own training"

    There are some good points there but you really really get out on the ice over the strawman pond in a couple places.

    Good read tho.
    It's not designed to be a strongly persuasive piece.
  3. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 5:49pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I don't think it's fair to categorize grappling and MMA schools as only working for big muscular people with huge pain thresholds (the 'success by attrition of the initially weak' argument).
    No no, I certainly don't mean just that. The technical base is obviously effective. It's just that once you play the ratings game as folks are wont to do here, that this kind of thing becomes a factor. The techniques might be effective, but if long term training is enough of a gauntlet, is it really the techniques alone?

    I have a hunch that one of the problems with CMA is that they have all these flashy aesthetically pleasing forms and 'alternative health' side to them, so they attract (and are often deliberately marketed this way) to lots of people who have no interest in fighting. There are generations of instructors who only ever did that side of it themselves.

    With things like Boxing and BJJ, there's not really much doubt what they're for, so even though boxers and BJJers come in all sizes and levels of natural ability (plenty of physically average guys), by taking up the art they've chosen they've already self-selected as people who are looking for some action.
    That sounds like a good argument. At this point though, what I'm really interested in is how good schools successfully add progressive intensity to their training. This would be above and beyond the McDojo path of forcing a few more pushups on you and coming up with stupid hoop-jumping for belt tests.

    Hedgehoey thinks that the method in several grappling schools does the trick for people who have impediments to training. A couple of moths back Asia mentions Nihon Kenpo as "MMA lite," and I've read at least one article that talks about it being descended from a much more brutal training regimen.

    But if people want to skim single sentences and flip their lid, that's their right, too:-)
    Last edited by eyebeams; 1/02/2006 6:00pm at .
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 5:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    It's not designed to be a strongly persuasive piece.
    Good because it wasn't. :evil7:
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 5:50pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Shi Dist
    As long as you are resigned to the fact that a grappler can shoot in and choke you out at will, hey, whatever floats your boat.

    -Shaved Gorilla Nutrider
    We'll see what happens when I give judo a shot again this year.
  6. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 5:54pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    Alright first poster, do you know what a straw man arguement is?

    Well right now you're animating an army of little straw men and choreographing them to classical music.
    1. Yes

    2. No

    Listen, i'm a 150 pound, severely nearsighted, anime dork. I also have a blood condition called thallesemia, a type of anemia, and get very lightheaded when there's not enough oxygen around. Maestro Nobones has full on multiple sclerosis, and Angry Spastic appears to be stitched together from the body parts of several different people.

    We all do pretty damn well for ourselves in the grappling arts.
    3. Okay. For some reason you think I'm addressing every TMA/MMA argument ever, instead of a few specific situations and the arguments around it.

    4. Say, are you familiar with what a strawman argument is?
  7. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:02pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Maeda, Kano, Helio, Mifune, Royler, Robin, Sudo, Megaton, Tani etc are all hulking brutes who kee baby bulls for a meal thats why the can train hardcore and be such devestating badasses...........oh wait thats wrong. :evil: :evil:
    Weight alone is not really the point.
  8. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:05pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Weezly
    Was this incident in relation to the Anti-Racist Action brawl that led to the guy getting convicted of agravated assault? If it was you shouldn't have to pay for your own drinks until the day you die! Too bad the guy got killed in april, that means I'll never get a few shots in myself. Guess I'll have to settle for pounding on the neanderthals still sporting Heritage Front tats, or maybe organize a grave pissing pilgrimage.
    Yeah, that was it. It feels pretty odd that he's dead, actually. I've never had people call me to make sure I have an alibi about anything before.
  9. Lane is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:18pm


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OP, correct me if I'm wrong, but is this a salient exegesis of your argument:

    1. Training hard is great, and undoubtedly produces better fighters.

    2. But not everyone wants or desires to be a fighter in the sense of being someone who could competently handle themselves against other well-trained fighters.

    3. Some people enjoy martial arts because they provide a hobby, or a social gathering environment, or even a means of friendly competition.

    4. These people should not be discouraged from doing what they do because they can't hold their own with well-trained fighters, because they never intended it to be that way.

    If 1-4 are correct, then I see no problem with it. I doubt I will ever be a "good" fighter, and that's OK. I don't ever plan to fight, and if forced into one of those RBSD situations I think I will pick up my **** and run, rather than try to disarm my knife-wielding mugger opponent and slashing his hamstrings with his own knife. I can live with being a coward, but I can't live with being dead. :)

    However, lots of people think that being a person like (4) makes them equal to or better than a trained fighter from (1). This isn't true. I know that against a well-trained opponent, I am only so much well-pulverized meat. I can show you the bruises to prove it as well. I enjoy training hard now, when I am 22, but in the forseeable future I won't have the time or the luxury to train like I do now. I don't think there's any incongruity with saying that undoubtedly, harder training with sparring and aliveness is going to produce a better fighter on average. I don't think it has anything to do with TMA vs. MMA or anything like that. Hard practice equals good performance. Think of it like professional sports. Pro football players put themselves through intense workouts, decidedly moreso than say a professional golfer. A pro golfer would not make a good football player... but they make pretty good golfers. That's what martial arts are like... there are those that make good fighters, and those that make good hobbies and fun things to do with one's spare time.
    --
    L.
  10. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    Weight alone is not really the point.
    You are obviously ignorant of the history of many of the pple I posted. I already stated that several of them were sickly and frail in their youth, some up to their teen years, and changed that by training hard.

    You are enlightened.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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