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  1. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2006 1:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AikiZenDragon
    I do think the large majority of aikidoka train with different goals than say SD. or MMA competitions and thus are not necessarily effective in these situations... any one who wants to train differently obviously can and much the same way as any other style... many forms of aikido train with little resistance for beginners that is increased with level... most do not add non compliancy at higher levels although some do... we have randori practices just like judo... in some schools this is just more compliant training, in some there is non compliance, resistance, and counter attack/reversals... it is more of a personal choice than a school or organizational choice... we used to have a 'special' practice on sunday afternoon that basically was along the lines of a throw down... some people really worked it hard, others not so much... it was not like a traditional class, but it was good practice...


    So , in general , Aikido isn't teaching anything but choreography and techniques that could be used when you actually go and train them against resistance and in free sparring . ?

    Becouse that I agree with ... that and when you start adding punching and kicking ... it's usualy real hard to tell Aikido from Hapkido and some forms of Ju Jitsu apart . There are only so many ways you can punch , kick , takedown , and finish (submit) someone .

    The Key is training properly and as realisticly as possible . If this is your point then yeah I agree , Aikido can work .

    If your saying most Aikido schools teach properly and prepare their students to defend themselves ... then I am calling massive bullshit .
    Last edited by BackFistMonkey; 2/01/2006 1:58pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  2. The Limey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2006 1:42pm


     Style: Ex-TMA/KB Noob/Judo Noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Agranjero
    I just read this thread, after watching the video. As an aiki practitioner (more on that in a second) that video is an embarrasing load of crap. I don't believe for one second that if I punched that guy, it would just bounce of his ki. By the same token, what student is going to embarrass an 8th Dan in an open demo.

    Now, aiki. There are all flavors from the style I study - Yoseikan - which has now evolved into its own budo to the Ki Society which does often like to even fall down. The post that said aiki is an approach not a set of techniques. Let me give you a brief history lesson.

    Minoru Mochizuki, the creator of Yoseikan, went to Europe in 1951 with permission to teach aiki while there from Ueshiba himself. When he returned Sensei explained to Ueshiba that there were situations where aiki did not work by itself and he had to supplement with his judo (in which he was 8th Dan and a direct student of Kano and Mifune); his karate (he trained under Funikosi and was 5th Dan in Shotokan); and even some other jiujitsu (he had menkyo kaiten in a style called gokushin ryu). Ueshiba did not like the idea much but Mochizuki was right, the basic techniques of Aiki were not enough.

    That was the reason Mochizuki started the Yoseikan. He believed that the techniques of Ueshiba were becoming less and less realistic and effective in a real life situation. He started Yoseikan to maintain the martial aspects of aikijutsu (as it was called then). I can assure you that Yoseikan practitioners are comfortable in karate mode, judo mode, jiujitsu mode, and grappling on the ground. Hand us a weapon and we can go there too. I dare say my experience with Yoshinkan is that they also practice a hard style that works on the streets. I have very limited understanding of the Iwama folks but from what I know, they can be a hard style too.

    So, don't lump us all together or make the mistake that the aiki guy is ill equipped. I recently went to an aiki clinic with an 8th Dan who is a respectable guy and very talented but the truth is, if I hear, one more time that the opponent can't let go once you grab them, I think I will let go and punch them right on the jaw. The 8th Dan had me grab him, he did his technique and I did not know when I was supposed to fall down, so I didn't. We reset and I went down at the right time. Why, because he actually threw me? No, because out of respect for the man I remembered that aiki at that level is a lesson in unbalancing the opponent and fluidity of motion. What I knew that others did not, this guy wasn't just ranked in aiki. Nope, the Japanese dude, had he wanted to, could have come with two or three other arts. Then I might not have chosen to fall, he might have obliged me on his own. I agree that aiki, in general, is in a sorry state of affairs, but ya gotta admit, it can be really pretty to watch.

    ok, so you're saying that an 8th dan in aikido can only make his stuff work if you attack him in a pre-determined manner?

    Bullshido.

    You didn't KNOW which direction to fall the first time so you didn't fall

    aka the technique doesn't work on a non-comliant partner, let alone a resisting opponent.

    Bullshido.

    If the 8th dans **** doesn't work when you don't know what he's going to do, it just plain doesn't work.

    In my 5 months of judo I've never seen my judo teacher say "I didn't throw you because you were standing in the wrong position". His **** works. He doesn't need help from the uke.

    If the basic techniques of ANY martial art aren't sufficient to get you through most situation then the art is a waste of time. If I have to wait til I become a black belt before learning to defend myself everything before that was a waste of time.

    Basic level karate/boxing/muay thai/judo/bjj can get you through most situations why can't basic aikido do the same?
  3. KhorneliusPraxx

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2006 1:50pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On a side note -
    The Limey is dodging me.
  4. Agranjero is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 10:11am


     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, I just can't agree that you lump an entire art together because someone doing the techniques doesn't apply them properly. You have to look at the reason for what they are doing. To use the example above, there are many judo dojo that teach judo from the competition approach. I have done randori with these folks and guess what, the sports approach to judo throws does not work against an experienced judo player. So if I follow the logic above, all judo is crap and not worth the trouble. I will tell you right now, that a drop seio nage is a useless self defense technique that I will strangle the thrower from every time they try it. As a sport technique however it is used a great deal with effect.

    Same holds true for tomoe nage, most judo players dont use it anymore because, referees often don't know how to score sutemi and judo players don't know how to do it right. But, my good friend who is 2 Dan in traditional judo can use that technique all day long in a self defense situation with great effect.

    You cannot give a blanket statement about an art because of how people practice it. Like judo, there are a wide range of aiki styles that have different foci, some are spiritual and some will use the same techiques to put a hurt on you that would be hard to forget.
  5. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2006 10:15am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Agranjero
    I will tell you right now, that a drop seio nage is a useless self defense technique that I will strangle the thrower from every time they try it. As a sport technique however it is used a great deal with effect.
    Umm, that doensn't make sense. A throw either works or it doesn't. If they have your balance they will throw you, if they dont you can choke them. You can either do the throw or you can't. Its not like the physics of the world change on the competition floor. If someone turns their back to throw me and doesn't have my balance i'm going to choke them right then and there. That will still win competitions. But if they took my balance properly I'm going to get thrown, its as simple as that.
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