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  1. Ronin.74 is online now

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 1:46pm


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Problems and Possible solutions for Kung Fu

    I have been lurking in the shadows of Bullshido for many months, and admire what everyone is trying to accomplish here. To rid the world of BS martialartists. That is not an easy task and hopefully I will be able to contribute.

    That being said I would like to offer the following up for critique (as I am sure it will be, vehemently) and as a suggestion for Kung Fu practioners.

    I would like to address the main problem with Kung fu as it is here in the U.S.

    Practioners with years of training that cannot fight.

    The problem in general stems from poor quality instructors, instructors who don't know any better, or instructors who feel their students have no interest in actually applying what they're learning.

    1. Poor quality instructors.
    These are guys that have trained with various instructors over the years, learning techniques and how they are theoretically applied and then decide they are qualified to teach. My Muay Thai coach calls them "Technique Collectors" They have little to no sparring experience, and have never been in a real fight. They try to avoid fights (as all of us should) but also avoid sparring, giving us philosophical reasons (BS) for the lack of it in their training. This kind of instructor should be avoided.

    2. Instructors who don't know any better.
    This kind of instructor is generally a product of the instructors discussed in #1. They learn from poor quality instructors and then go out on their own and open a school somewhere else. They are generally fiercely loyal to their "Master" (much like a dog) and follow the same teaching style of their "Master". On the rare occassion that one of these guys tries to do more with his training, i.e. sparring or cross taining, they are looked down on by their "Master" and are chastised for even thinking of doing something different. Unless they choose to distance themselves from their "Master " by adding a sparring program, then they too should also be avoided.

    3.Instructors who feel their students have no interest in actually applying what they're learning.
    This kind of instructor is a rarity anymore. They are generally much older and have become disenchanted with teaching. In their younger days they did fight, both professionally or in the street, but after years of people only wanting to learn Tai Ji or performance Wushu they have given up trying to teach real application or running sparring sessions.
    This kind of instructor is willing to teach sparring sessions or allow his students to spar while he critiques what they are doing in an effort to improve their skills, but the students have to take the initiative and start sparring. The quality of teaching from this kind of instructor is top-notch. He would be qualified and knowledgeable, he just needs to see that his students are interested in doing more that performance routines.

    Recently I have discovered that my Kung Fu instructor is number 3. He is much older (well past 60) but still moves with a great amount of grace, speed and power. I have never heard him talk about doing any sparring. But a couple of weeks ago a partner and I decided to put on some chest protectors so we could make real contact to the body. Immediately my instructor was involved, I dare say I have never seen him this enthusiastic in class. He was truly happy that some students had taken it upon themselves to try applying what they were learning and beating on each other.

    Afterwards I explained my plan to my instructor that this was a progression that I was going to work on with my training partner(he has little experience sparring, and I am admittedly very rusty). It would gradually increase in the amount of contact that would be involved (especially after we get the necessary equipment) and he agreed with me completely saying that we would set aside time each session to work on sparring.

    So how does one solve the problem of Kung Fu practioners being poor fighters? It's easy;
    1. Stay away from schools that say they don't spar.
    2. If you try to spar in your school and are told by the instructor to cease doing it, for whatever reason, you are in the wrong place, leave.
    3. If your instructor shows no interest in sparring, then you need to take it upon yourself to spar. After you start sparring if the instructor takes a positive interest and begins trying to help you develope, your in the right place, if he frowns on it see #2.

    Also it is wise, and necessary these days, to cross train. Don't blindly follow your instructor. A true martial arts instructor regardless of their style will recognise the merits of other systems. My kung fu instructor on more than one occassion has mentioned that he finds Muay Thai, and BJJ to be formidable fighting systems.

    So branch out a little bit, try and learn some different things. But above all else spar. Even if you start out slow and progress over several months, that would be better than not doing it at all.

    I hope this has been informative to my fellow martial artist and kung fu brethren, and I apologize if this topic has been discussed like this before.
  2. CMack11 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:04pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So how does one solve the problem of Kung Fu practioners being poor fighters? It's easy;
    1. Stay away from schools that say they don't spar.
    2. If you try to spar in your school and are told by the instructor to cease doing it, for whatever reason, you are in the wrong place, leave.
    3. If your instructor shows no interest in sparring, then you need to take it upon yourself to spar. After you start sparring if the instructor takes a positive interest and begins trying to help you develope, your in the right place, if he frowns on it see #2.
    No offense, but that's pretty short sighted. You aren't cleaning up kung fu as a whole with that idea. Just because you, as an individual, decide to find a school that 'lets' you spar or is OK with sparring doesn't mean you are cleaning up the art. You're just finding a good school. Sure, if everybody who is taking kung fu did it at the same time it might have an effect, but that's never going to happen. Crappy schools are still going to stay open and get business. Personally, what I think it needs is for some prominent San Shou fighters in different styles to make a splash in Pride and the UFC. That will lead more fighters to go looking for good CMA schools w/ San Shou programs. The wannabees will also follow.

    Alongside that, we pump JFS up with about 2 gallons of coffee and send him out to give CMA a 'cleansing'. Everybody who can't fight gets their school taken over.
  3. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:06pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're kind of preaching to the converted, but your monologue was well-written and easy to read, so I'll be nice.

    You make some good points, but I don't think these are problems that exist soley within Kung Fu and CMA. I think that many modern martial arts are becoming increasingly more popular...and with popularity comes problems. An instructor that was able to FINALLY quit their janitorial job to teach full-time will be hard pressed to advocate full-impact sparring if it could cost him students. Business wise, it just isn't a smart move.

    Of course, the problem doesn't just stem from these schools, but from much of the intolerance espoused here as well. Argue all you want, there will always be guys that ruthlessly pick on CMA stylists EVEN THOUGH said stylists may crosstrain in BJJ/MT (apparently the only thing that doesn't get picked on).

    The intolerance and badgering does little to promote positive feelings towards the point being made, regardless of the enthusiasm behind the arguments.

    For example:

    #1

    You: "Hey guys! I'm new here, and I'm studying an extremely rare and deadly form of Dragonfly Kung Fu."

    Me: "You noob. Do you guys even spar hard?"

    You: "Well...my sifu says we're too deadly to spar"

    Me: "YOU FKIN JACKMOPHOBICFUCKTARD'D SPLEEN SPANKING SLIPPOFUBBERFUCKMOFAB@!@! YOU ARE THE LMNEST FUCKI MOFICKIN! GAH!"

    You: "Wow..how nice of you."

    #2

    You: "Hey guys, I'm new here and I study a rare form of Dragonfly Kung Fu"

    Me: "Sounds interesting. Do you guys spar hard? Do you grapple at all?"

    You: "Not really. My sifu says we're too deadly to spar, since all we do is eye gouge and testicle rip"

    Me: "Hmm...do me a favor and throw on some goggles, head gear, cups, and gloves. Then find a partner and actively resist each other as you try and apply the techniques. I think you'll be surprised. Also, find a grappling partner and see how well you can last on the ground."

    You: "Wow, I'll give it a shot."

    ----Which one would you be likely to listen to? If you scream at someone with an attitude, it doesn't matter what your words are.

    Of course, such niceguy stuff isn't really the MO for Bullshido.net, but I think you get the idea.

    Also, it helps to not make any blanket assumptions about martial arts. I've had my face kicked in by Olympic TKD stylists, and I boxed a Choy Li Fut practitioner who fucked me up beyond belief...while wearing boxing gloves that he didn't normally train in!

    I should have mentioned that there are members who argue in non imflammatory manner, and these are often the more highly regarded members of the site by us little laypeople.
    Last edited by SuperGuido; 12/30/2005 2:30pm at .
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't need chest protectors.
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  5. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:18pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a strange feeling this might have been addressed before. Anyone?
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've got a vague sense of deja vu, that's for sure.
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  7. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:47pm


     Style: Ving Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shouldn't this be in the "your art sucks" forum?

    Anyway, I do think that maybe there is a problem with shitty instructors. My sifu is a badass, and he's a bit more open-minded than some of the other kung-fu instructors I seem to hear about on these forums. And there are a bunch of other badasses there too (my school is in the middle of Detroit, ya know). No, I don't think I'm one of those badasses. :icon_cher I drive an hour in from the suburbs.

    The "solution" you offer seems a bit one sided though: SPAR!!! There are plenty of shitty instructors who spar often as well. Besides, there have been other posts on sparring. I tend to think that most sparring comes down to a "free-for-all" where technique and one's learning is thrown out the window, producing crap. Sparring should be a teaching excercise, not a "game you try to win". Sure, throw in a near total "free-for-all" every so often and invite people from other schools even, but I certainly don't think it should be some weekly event, or that it'll be the "savior" of some system.

    Dagon :fart:
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you Dagon, for my new sig.
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  9. unpossible is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 3:05pm


     Style: hackery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I won't comment on the usefulness of sparring -- as I think that, frankly, everyone else here will handle any attacks on the ultimate validity of it -- but I'll say that some of the comments are really perceptive: the nature of the overall problem is, as you correctly stated, an economic one. Thus, the solution can only be economic.

    What people REALLY want, what they will pay for in this country, is not necessarily to be able to fight well. Most people will never fight, and know it. What a lot of people are willing to pay for is something that lets them feel like they can fight, have bragging rights of "I am a black belt in X," and perform movements and stances that will be 'proof' that they can fight, but they probably realize from even the most rudimentary "Ok, show me what you've got" slap-fests with friends at parties that what they've learned may not have been how to win fights.

    If you consider how rare it is to find someone, out of a wide pool of average people, who are willing to simply fight for the fun of it, you can appreciate that we don't really have a "fighting culture" here in the states.

    In Thailand, the prevalance of ACTUAL fighting as a national pasttime means that the customer base EXPECTS to be able to fight, and will probably try to. Shitty instructors show up a lot more in that environment.

    Here, where fighting is looked down upon and where most MA practitioners frankly do NOT expect to ever be in a fight and are not really training to win fights, there is a lot less of an economic incentive.

    All I'll shoot the **** on here are vague economic bits like this ;), obviously from my style of "hackery," I know jack-all (although I've been to thailand, I wasn't interested in MA so much at the time).
  10. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 3:13pm


     Style: Ving Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    I drive an hour in from the suburbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Thank you Dagon, for my new sig.
    ROFL! Glad to be of service. He he he he. :3some:
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