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  1. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:42pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The comparison of similar techniques from Submission Wrestling vs Japanese Jujitsu should just read "Right Way vs Wrong Way". It's cute and all to show how techniques are different when you pretend you're a samurai, but any supposed benefit of having "disengagement" in mind seems to be outweighed by how the techniques are faulty because they are not trained corrently.
  2. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:44pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread is skirting closer and closer to the edge of the LAVA AND BROKEN GLASS pit.
  3. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    It's like someone combined the worst aspects of catch wrestling and LARP into one horrible, shame inducing, "calflock".


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 7:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, as it was mentioned in my post, the point in that article relevant to this thread is the topic of disengagement, the ability to disengage, the ability to keep disengagement in mind at all times during a self-defense situation. The point of including that article was not about the modern applications of samurai armor in today's streetfights. You guys and your sacred cows are too funny :biggrin:

    I find it ironic that it has to be the one article of traditional ju-jutsu that ends up mentioning one crucial fact of self-defense, dissengagement aka intelligent quick-haul-ass, which seems to be sorely missing in most discussions of more effective martial arts that I've seen so far... go figures. Someday, somebody is going to get a new anal cavity ripped just below the liver when he tries to pull his sacred-cow-fu on a street situation. :tellme: :icon_eek: :new_Eyecr

    ciao, ciao.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 7:25pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So doing an americana wrong, a RNC wrong and an ankle lock wrong is better for self defense?
  6. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 7:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    So doing an americana wrong, a RNC wrong and an ankle lock wrong is better for self defense?
    I've seen that article before. The RNC version might work and I would probably use it over being underneath with hooks, but not over having my opponent face-down. I agree the other two techniques are horrible since in #1 he is mounted and in #3 you can just let go and roll away. Please don't lump what I am saying in with that JJJ apology piece.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:05pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    So doing an americana wrong, a RNC wrong and an ankle lock wrong is better for self defense?
    Ay Dios Mio Carajo!!! No! No! No! LOL. I swear that you guys have a reading problem :eatbabies

    You are focusing on the traditional ju-jutsu techniques as if that was the point I was trying to make. I take your word for granted that the jjj techniques are awful. I don't have the knowledge to tell. But in all honesty, can anyone tell me with a straight face that the submission grappling choke, for example, as illustrated in that article, is an optimal choke for a self-defense situation????

    Me no think so. Me be BJJ n00b, but me have seen quite a few street fights, stabings and punching buddies coming out of nowhere. Can you do the "right RNC" in a crowded club against a punk throwing haymakers? Hell no. In a desolated street where a mugger corners you without giving you no other chance but to fight him? Hell no. If the fight happens to end in you doing an RNC to your opponent as you do on the mat, oh well, you do what you do best, but that doesn't mean that's the best thing to do. You do your best with the only things you know. You act, think, and react as you train and as you know, no more than that.

    You guys have already acknowledge that the self-defense stuff you have seen in your BJJ classes are a joke. And one important reason is that you can't dissengage quickly. No matter how you cut it, you can't haul ass quickly from that possition. Can anyone tell me that this assertion I'm just making right now is wrong??????

    I'm not saying to use the alternative jjj techniques as illustrated in the article, and please don't tell me that the submission grappling alternatives are "right" . Right on the mat where your only one opponent is going to let go as soon as you tap perhaps. :XXeyeslam

    The traditional jj alternatives demonstrated in the article may be wrong, but the reason why they are different may be right (how to let go and and haul ass quickly).

    So the question for submission grapplers today is how to take what they do best in the mat today, and decide what to keep, what to discard and what to modify so that they become applicable from a self-defense point of view, not from the safety of a mat where the only opponent you will ever have to worry will let go as soon as you tap.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I like how when confronted by multiple opponents, people want to resort to techniques that would get them raped by just one.
    This doesn't necessarily pertain to multiple opponents. Since you are not in a controlled setting any change in the environment could suddenly render that choke disadvantageous.
  9. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 11:07pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now I remember why I hate street vs sport arguments.

    As I said, I'd look into ISR and STAB by SBG if I was interested in self defense.

    I'm not.

    Other than that, buy a gun.

  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 11:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    The choke in the picture is optimal for self defense against one person. Running away really quickly is optimal against multiple opponents. I like how when confronted by multiple opponents, people want to resort to techniques that would get them raped by just one.
    No Osiris, dude, you are getting my words wrong. I never advocated one over the other. I'm just don't see how those submission grappling examples as optimal for self-defense. In a self-defense situation, you must never, ever, ever assume you are only defending against one opponent. I have one experience that is burned in my memories: last year before coming to the US, 1998. God awful club in Honduras, two guys were fighting, sort of in a clinch. Another guy came saying, and I QUOTE "hey guys, take it easy, please, the cops are going to come and close the place."

    Lo and behold in that peacemaking overture, the third guy pulled a gillette razor and deep cut one of the guys on the back... he happened to be the other guy's buddy. One of my best friends in Florida, an ex-cop from NY also witnessed the same **** in NY a few years ago. Remember the "malicia" concept that is sometimes mentioned in capoeira? Kinda like that. You may be defending yourself against one person at the beginning, but you better believe that there may be another one coming at you. You better think like that, and you better be ready. Just because you see one, that doesn't mean he is the only one. If you go to the ground, you better be able to get up fast, and that choke won't let you do that.

    BJJ is the best in the world when it comes to submission grappling, but no way on earth that I will ever see a lot of things in it (in their pure form) as applicable to self-defense. Honest to God, I just don't see how. Actually the more I think about it as I'm writing this, the less that I see all forms of submission grappling, anything on the ground, as an ideal component of a self-defense theory. Well, maybe for a woman in a rape-case situation (where usually, it will be only one attacker.)

    If the ground happens, it happens. Unless one can ascertain 100% that there will only be one opponent in that confrontation (or if your opponent is just too fucking huge), one better keep it away from the ground as much as possible... I think.

    Oh well, I'm out... there is a UFC rerun on spike that I want to watch :adora:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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