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  1. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 1:52am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    I'm in this guys boat 100%

    edit: in fact, I often get a little annoyed when they teach the "self defense" techniques in my muay thai class because usually they're something you can't safely spar with or aren't allowed to use in competition, which is the whole point of why I do martial arts. Also, the addition of "Self defense" to the curriculum seems to mainly be a marketing gimmick to help attract all the peopl interested in doing martial arts for self defense.
    Our school actually ran a women's self-defence program at one point, and when attendance dropped off my head instructor just told the remaining girls to buy gis and join the BJJ class.

    I understand your complaint with that aspect of your Muay Thai curriculum, but MT has been a sport art for a long time. BJJ is, in my understanding and based on what I've read from Helio, supposed to be a self-defence art first and a sport art second. Given how huge the sport aspect is I'm wondering why self-defence is neglected.

    Also, none of the techniques we use are "too deadly". They'd all be legal in a vale tudo match (i.e. no stupid eye pokes, fishhooks, etc) save for the standard fingerlock.
  2. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 1:55am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I wouldn't change too much from basic MMA technique in a street fight. Ground and pound is tried and true on the street. No need to get all stupid.
    I agree with you, but there are details that make ground positions more appropriate to uncontrolled settings. For instance, if I am doing an arm triangle on someone I typically go up on one knee and post my other leg out similar to knee-on-chest but with the knee in the opponent's back. This way if I see other dangers I can disengage, soccer kick the guy and run. Were I in the sprawled-out position with one leg forward and one back it would take me longer to get up and block certain angles of view.

    In the above example it also helps prevent my opponent from rolling. I used it to win a match at my last tournament, in fact.
  3. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 3:26am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    To elaborate: If you were headlocked while rolling in class you would probably go straight to the trip takedown, take the back, etc. But this is a solution more suited to the sport aspect of BJJ and not necessarily the first thing you want to do in an uncontrolled setting.
    Why the **** not?


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  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:33am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    Frankly I don't give two craps about self-defense. I don't get in fights and generally avoid situations that would put myself at risk for other types of attacks. I do this stuff because it is fun and have a hard time thinking of rational arguments to the contrary for most americans.
    I'm in this guys boat 100%

    edit: in fact, I often get a little annoyed when they teach the "self defense" techniques in my muay thai class because usually they're something you can't safely spar with or aren't allowed to use in competition, which is the whole point of why I do martial arts. Also, the addition of "Self defense" to the curriculum seems to mainly be a marketing gimmick to help attract all the peopl interested in doing martial arts for self defense.
    Me, too. I agree with UpaLumpa. Training on MA for the sole purpose of 'self-defense' is a very dangerous thing to do. It shows a mentality with a predisposition to fight.

    The best self-defense technique is to follow your gut insticts. I remember my Kempo instructor of old telling me that regardless of one's training, if you have a feeling, however small, that some guy can kick the **** out of you, then run like hell if you can, cuz he probably can and will.

    I see some guys at my BJJ class, as I've seen other guys at my prev. Judo classes, and I see they have a bull's eye painted in their foreheads. Last month, my BJJ instructor was explaining to us how to deal with a guy that 1) doesn't know ground-fighting, and 2) we end up in the ground. Standard stuff, move to mount him, use his uneducated attempt to get up to let him roll under you and get his back, RNC, and ta-da.

    Pretty nice, BUT, my instructor wasn't advocating to take it to the ground or anything else for that matter. He was just explaining what to do in such a case. Anyways, to make the story short, some of the guys at the BJJ class (who seem cocky by nature) were talking like "oh man, this is the ****. I'm gonna use at the club when I get into a fight." God have mercy on their souls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I wouldn't change too much from basic MMA technique in a street fight. Ground and pound is tried and true on the street. No need to get all stupid.
    Yep... so long as one is able to get up, disengage and run like hell in a split second if necessary... I think.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:41am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    To elaborate: If you were headlocked while rolling in class you would probably go straight to the trip takedown, take the back, etc. But this is a solution more suited to the sport aspect of BJJ and not necessarily the first thing you want to do in an uncontrolled setting
    Why the **** not?
    Hmmm, a hard floor is kinda unforgiving during a takedown, no matter how it gets executed :XXjester: Put chairs, or screw the chairs, think pavement with that unforgiving, flesh scrapping surface... I guess the operative word is "to go straight"
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    you would probably go straight to the trip takedown
    On a self-defense scenario, you better think twice to go to a takedown. Just landing on your elbow on a pavement can shatter it, and then you are screwed.

    In a self-defense scenario, you would go to the takedown as the last resort, when there is no other option (.ie. you can't get out of the headlock, or the guy is just too huge/strong). On the mat, however, the takedown will be the first thing in your to-do list as you roll. On the mat, you go to the ground. The ground is your predilected weapon, your first choice. On a self-defense situation, the ground is the last option ALWAYS.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Te No Kage! is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 11:12am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    to answer the original question, yes we've done those self-defence drills with our BJJ instructor as well, and my overrall feeling about it is blah

    moves like countering a bear hug from behind by reaching between the legs and picking up an opponents leg

    or countering looping right cross by entering for the hip throw

    I put it all in the same category as the aikido I've taken before and not really of much benefit
    "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -A. Lincoln

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  7. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 1:29pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    Why the **** not?
    Because now you are on the ground in an uncontrolled setting when you could have finished the encounter standing up and with better awareness of your surroundings.

    For another example, we used to do a rear-trip takedown to counter the over-the-arms rear clinch, but there's an easier hip throw from there that leaves you standing over the attacker ready for a good soccer kick instead of putting you both on the ground.
  8. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 2:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the traditional BJJ self defense curriculum (bearhug escapes, knife disarms, etc.) is unrealistic and mostly useless. I imagine they are only kept as part of "tradition," like how the R side of the family (Rorion, Royce, Royler) claims to have the "Real Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" because they still teach the fuddy-duddy syllabus Helio passed down.

    Just look at the BJJ self defense curriculum against (the sadly cliched) Aliveness, and you'll see that it doesn't fit the bill. I would get into SBG's ISR and STAB programs if self defense were my main concern, but for now I'm happy to be a ****** sportfighter.

    I was reading a BJJ forum where someone asked Micheal Jen, a BJJ black belt, why he said "Personally, my adult blue belt requirements are very different from that which you listed. I don't like BJJ self-defense techniques. I think it is bunch of garbage, so I don't require that my student learn it."

    Here are his replies, since I found them very interesting:

    Keep in mind that I'm talking about the self-defense techniques, not sport BJJ or NHB. BJJ people laugh at the stuff that Japanese Jiu-jitsu and aikido do, yet BJJ self-defense is the exact same stuff. BJJ sport or NHB techniques are learned and then practiced with full resistance when we roll or spar. BJJ self-defense techniques are never practiced like that. It is done like kata. If it was done with full sparring, it would be clear that it doesn't work- just like the Japanese jiu-jitsu.

    By the way, before getting into BJJ, I almost got a black belt in a style of Japanese jiu-jitsu. I can tell you that once I felt full resistance, that stuff didn't work.

    What is even worse is the BJJ weapons defense. If you want to learn to groundfight or defend against things on the ground, learn BJJ. BJJ is not weapon art nor is it a weapons defense art. If you tried the BJJ knife defenses in reality, you're going to get killed.

    What is even worse is the BJJ weapons
    Next he was asked "Do you think because of your BJJ training that you are better prepared for a fight, not self defense, but an actual fight?", and his reply:

    I would say that I am better off than the average person who does not know anything, however, I wouldn't say that I am a proficient streetfighter.

    I believe a person is prepared for what they train for. I train sport BJJ. I do not train NHB, self-defense, streetfight, etc... I do not fool myself and equate sport BJJ with a streetfight.

    There are too many unpredictable factors in a real fight. A real fight is not two guy in Speedos facing off in a ring.
    And some more answers to questions I'm not going to bother posting since you can guess what they were well enough:

    upa,

    I can't really comment to much on arts like Krav Maga as I have not studied that art. I'm sure there are those who have used their martial arts in a streetfight, but there is no single art that prepares you for all situations.

    As far as comparing arts, you need to look at the training methods. Obviously an art that has sparring with full resistance is going to be more productive that those who are just doing kata. However, when it comes to self-defense or a streetfight, environmental training is also very important. In BJJ, we grapple on mats. Have you ever tried it on pavement? On dirt with rocks? There's a lot more to preparing for a streetfight than sparring in the gym.

    No I have not test my BJJ in a streetfight. I hope I never have to. As a business owner that lives in CA, I would never want to risk the hassle of getting sued. People in CA are lawsuit happy. Plus, people no longer fight fair. My wife cousin won a fight, but the guy later came back and shot my wife cousin in the chest.

    ---------------------

    MikeG,

    Every art has it's strength and weakness. Is there one art that will prepare you for all situations? No. To be effective in self-defense, you will have to be familiar with all ranges of combat which means you will have to learn and mix different arts. Then you will need to ad environmental training so you can learn what techniques work and don't work in certain areas. Then there is the psychological training. It's one thing to know you are going to spar or train, it is another thing to get jumped when you least expect it.

    ---------------------------

    Breeze,

    There is no one single definition for a "real fight". A real fight could involve a knife. If you used BJJ against a knife, you will die. A real fight could happen in a bathroom or in your car where you have no room to go to the ground. A real fight could happen with more than one attacker. A real fight is not just one person facing off against another person.
    And finally:

    If you truly want to be as prepared as possible when it comes to self-defense....

    1. Your main focus when training will have to be self-defense. Take for example an NHB fighter. If a person wants to be a good NHB fighter, he will have to focus on NHB. A person cannot be a good NHB fighter if they focus on sport BJJ 90% of the time and NHB 10% of the time. Similarly, if you want to get good at self-defense, you need to make sure that is your focus. You must also accept the fact that you will no excel in sport as much as those who only focus on sport.

    2. You will need to be well rounded. You will have to learn striking, standing grappling, ground grappling, and weapons. There is not one single art that effectively addresses all the arts, so you will have to study different arts.

    3. As you study different arts, understand the different between sport and streetfighting. For example, boxing is an excellent sport to teach you how to punch. However, in the sport of boxing, hands are wrapped and covered by gloves. In the street, you do no have handwraps and gloves. You will need to learn how to adapt your techniques.

    4. You will need to learn how to fight dirty and defend against someone who is fighting dirty.

    5. Sparring and lots of it. If you look at effective arts like judo, BJJ, boxing, kali ilustrisimo, muay thai, sparring is a big art of the training. None of those arts spend a majority of the time doing kata or the like.

    6. Scenario training. Spar in different environments/areas/number of opponent and begin to understand what does and does not work in certain environments/areas. Also, it is great to spar in a wide open area with lots of room, but what happened when there are objects on the floor and all around. For example, I can tell you that I have done weapons sparring and not paid attention to things on the floor and fell flat on my ass.

    7. Psychological training. It is one thing to be ready to spar and it is another thing to get jumped when you are totally off guard.

    8. Pain tolerance and killer instinct. Some people crumple under the slightest amount of pain. A person must learn to fight and withstand pain.

    9. Tactics. Sport tactics are completely different than street tactics. In order to save your life, you may have to sucker punch someone or use something in the environment as a weapon or tactic. Or you may talk about certain things to throw off your assailant's mental focus.

    10. When to fight and when not to fight/legal ramifications. Learning effective self-defense is also learn when to walk away. Self-defense doesn't mean to beat the ass of everyone who bothers you. In addition, understand what qualifies as self-defense and what qualifies as assualt.

    Almost forgot this golden oldie:
    The BJJ headlocks escapes are good, but most of the unarmed stuff is nothing but traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu that I doesn't think works very well. The weapon techniques are terrible. If you want to learn how to handle weapons, learn it from a weapons art.

    A few people can say that they have made the BJJ self-defense stuff work in action. Similarly, I bet I can find some people who say they have used their Tae Kwon Do or Kung Fu in action. It still doesn't change my opinion on BJJ self-defense, TKD or Kung Fu.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 1/02/2006 6:51pm at . Reason: Formatting.
  9. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 3:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again I must stress that we frequently remove the compliant element of this training once someone has tried it a few times. For instance, when defending from your back against a standing opponent the attacker will be told to throw full-force slaps to the head while the defender must keep them away. The same goes for the standing defence against a 1-2 combination where you take the overhooks and throw. If you miss you get hit.
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 6:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wanted to make reference to the following article at grapplearts.com regarding the differences between Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and classical ju-jutsu techniques (takenouchi-ryu to be exact... just quoting the article :read: ). BTW, I think I saw tihs article quoted here, but I can't find it with the search func... that crap doesn't work...

    http://www.grapplearts.com/Submissio...s-ju-jutsu.htm

    Please bear in mind that the intention of the article was not to indicate which is more effective in general, much less in self-defence in particular. However, the article raises a good point (or at least a good point based on my interpretation of things). BTW, highlighted lines are done by me to stress the points I found relevant:
    The goal of Submission Grappling is to submit your opponent or defeat him on points. The goal of classical Ju-jutsu was to win on the battlefield, usually in the presence of weapons and multiple attackers and often encumbered by armor. These divergent goals lead to quite different strategies.

    Submission grapplers and the medieval samurai had different concerns while grappling on the ground. Countless modern-day competitions have proven that the Ďrear mountí (illustrated by the modern choking sequence shown above) is a very powerful way to control an opponent. In this position an opponent is very vulnerable to a number of submissions and has extremely limited options to escape and counter-attack. This position is not favored in classical Ju-jutsu, however, because disengaging from an opponent could be difficult to do quickly. The knee in the spine control, although less secure, could be abandoned faster if a second attacker suddenly engaged the samurai.
    Putting aside the fact that wearing a samurai armor is not a pre-requisite to defend yourself on the street (except on Halloween if you are a geek), there is the issue of dissengaging ASAP. Dissengaging is part of knowing when to haul ass away from a dangerous scenario.

    Please refer to the illustrations of classical ju-jutsu and BJJ chokes in the mentioned URL.

    Last, but not least, I like the summary of this article:
    The study of these different approaches to combative grappling can be a fascinating and rewarding undertaking. The classical approach emphasizes issues related to culture, history, and the perils of total combat. Modern Submission Grappling, on the other hand, offers a highly efficient training method to develop skills and proficiency in the techniques of combative grappling. It is the opinion of the authors that practitioners of both arts can benefit by being exposed to the other art and approach.
    Regardless of which art is more efficient (or inefficient, choose your own sacred cows), this is something that should be read and internalize by those wishing to know what the hell should be (or should not be) done in a self-defense scenario.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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