Thread: Turtle Guard
12/29/2005 7:13pm, #1Originally Posted by Aesopian
Telles in particular is a sign that some people are going down a path almost too silly to support with BJJ. I saw a match of his where he fought Ronaldo Jacare, where he actually managed to pull turtle from standing, as one does, and started working for sweeps and subs from there.
One of my training partners spent some time training with Josh Russell in Brazil, and subsequently started letting people get back mount on him so he could attempt some crazy straight armlocks and a weird figure-4 of his own devising. It worked well up until people started to find that there was an easy way out of the figure 4.
At which point, were it not for his stumpy little hobbit neck, he'd be in a great amount of trouble.
12/29/2005 7:20pm, #2Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
Edit: Nakamura versus Voyachavin maybe?
12/29/2005 10:17pm, #3
I understand the concern about "turtle guard", and it is stretching the term beyond its limits. But admit it -- Telles' success with it is hilarious. From what I remember of the fight, he was actually doing really well against Jacare with it, though I don't remember him winning. Still, that's like saying "He almost beat Pe de Pano with his mount guard."
Here is a position that is usually viewed as some last resort when your guard is getting passed and you're just trying to keep them from scoring point. But now there is a guy that actively seeks this position and WINS from it in high level tournaments. He's taken a position that is criticized for being abused as a stall tactic (HELLO JUDO) and built a dynamic game of sweeps, reversals and submissions around it. Sound familiar? (HINT: GORDO).
I'm actually coming back to training after injuring my knee, and while I was out I started trying to think of positions I can use without putting a lot of stress on my knee. One of those was the turtle. I've since watched Josh Russell's DVD, and I've actually been doing well with them in sparring. Most of it isn't that crazy. I get a lot of the basic moves like sit-outs and reversals where I roll them to side control. I even get one of the "flashy" moves consistently, where you somersault between their legs and take the back. And I have yet to really give up my back, since no one has gotten more than one hook before I escaped or switched position.
I'm not claiming this is the new strategies of champions or that it has any applications outside of sport BJJ. I'm pretty sure Sakuraba only got away with a lot of his turtling because striking an opponent on three points was illegal at the time, and got soccer kicked by Wanderlei when the rules where changed.
But still, it's hilarious.
Last edited by Aesopian; 12/29/2005 11:01pm at .
12/30/2005 12:00am, #4
The turtle guard is stupid imo. BJJ should not forget it's Vale Tudo roots.
12/30/2005 6:39pm, #5
1/02/2006 10:47pm, #6
One thing I like about the turtle guard is that Telles has taken a position and worked nearly an entire game around it. I like that by him experimenting and having success with this guard, it will increase the overall knowledge level in BJJ. As Aesopian pointed out, Gordo did the same thing with the half-guard. Now everyone knows some half-guard and even if they don't use it in their own game, they know enough to have something from that position, even if it's just one or two sweeps, or a way to get back to full guard. I think the benefit of Telles' journey down this path is that people with be able to improve their defences if they have to roll to their knees to counter a guard pass and even perhaps have a chance at a submission or sweep.
Of course, as RoninPimp said, it doesn't lend itself to real fighting.
Last edited by JohnnyS; 1/02/2006 10:56pm at .
1/05/2006 9:28am, #7
Paul Viele, instructional video producer, said this about turtle guard when asked about his work on a Telles series:Hey guys, thanks for all of the interest in the Telles series. I am sure that he will be excited to know that so many can really appreciate his game. One of the things that he really wanted to push on this series is that his Turtle is indeed a type of guard. It's not just to protect, it's to attack and submit, sweep and turnover the opponent.Just thought that was interesting.
Another really cool thing that came out was his Octopus guard. This was something that he started to talk about from the moment that we met and Telles claims that this new guard is almost sort of replacing his own Turtle guard. Of course he will continue to use the Tuttle all of the time, but he believes that the Octopus guard will become even a bigger weapon for him. He uses this game more for no gi and we filmed a whole DVD just on this topic.
I know that there will be a few people that will play it off as my creation (this already happened when I first announced it). Telles is serious about the Tuttle and Octopus and in fact he has tattooed a huge Octopus on his back. This is his creation and I can take no credit for it. As far as its legitimacy, I was impressed to say the least and I have seen it all. Will it become the next X-Guard? No, I don't thing so. However I believe that his concepts are extremely unique and he may be the most creative guy in the business.
I don't believe that Telles is looking to create concepts that only work on Jiu-Jitsu world champions. That focus is more in line with Marcelo Garcia's thought process. My impression of Telles is a guy who just loves grappling and just really likes to be part of the whole process. Competing and teaching. Does his Turtle Guard work against the best all of the time? Maybe not but I do not believe that this is his intention. He is a very smart guy and a deep thinker about his game and the philosophies of Jiu-Jitsu. He is taking Jiu-Jitsu to a whole new level with his ideas and thinking out of the box.
I have not started to edit this set yet. My plans are to begin after the first of the year. This will put this set out around February. I can't give you any insight to the layout of the DVD yet. I can give you an update in January.
We also have to thank and give Kid Peligro credit for this set happening. He helped Telles make his decision to bring his game to DVD.
Paul Viele World Martial Arts LTD.
Talking to my instructor, he's told me about even more black belts he knew in Brazil who have games that you'd never expect to work, but they would still win in tournaments with them. One was a guy who would pull "quarter guard" (as Eddie Bravo would call it), were he's just trapping their foot at the ankle. Almost everyone else in the world considers this the last act of desperation before your half guard is passed, but this guy just loved it and would play an entire game of sweeping from it. Another black belt has a butterfly guard where he lays flat on his back and holds on to their the fabric at their knees.
I suppose I could get mad and think they are forgetting vale tudo by using positions and games that don't translate. And maybe I should. But I doubt any of them think they are advancing vale tudo tactics, and I have yet to see anyone believe they are, so I don't see it misleading anyone. Personally, I am glad that they are finding games that others don't explore and fleshing them out. Creating over conforming.