228048 Bullies, 4504 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 61 to 70 of 89
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 34567 89 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. UpaLumpa is offline
    UpaLumpa's Avatar

    Exasperated.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Descending into absurdity
    Posts
    6,977

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 7:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    AJJ is a MMA school. But since "MMA" isn't a style...
    According to whom?
    There are mma schools that advertise teaching mixed martial arts and fighters who list their style as MMA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    Would it be fair to say that many of the most skilled guard players are from Brazillian jujitsu? Or that when it comes to teaching the guard position, the best instruction is from BJJ curriculum (generally)?
    How does that translate to a critical difference then?
    Soudns like you guys are just an MMA school, I'm guessing the name comes more from the need to put a martial arts "name" on most styles. Like Jackson's GaidoJujutsu :jerkit2yf

    Gumby -- Since my last little tirade about guard-whores (don't know if you would remember that or not), I've come to appreciate how green my guard is/was. For the last two months, and until I feel like my guard is up to snuff, I've been/will be a total guard-pulling piece of ****.
    The best way to work a position is to put yourself into it.
  2. UpaLumpa is offline
    UpaLumpa's Avatar

    Exasperated.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Descending into absurdity
    Posts
    6,977

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 7:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Egg Nog
    I want you all to practice passing guard to the mount and then letting yourself get rolled. THEN you've got him right where you want him!"
    I do this a lot working with people I am better than.
    Did it earlier today, great way to work a position. Doesn't do much for the other guy's morale though.
  3. Scrapper is offline
    Scrapper's Avatar

    Fear and bullets.

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Dayville, Connecticut, United States
    Posts
    4,286

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 8:30pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    According to whom?
    There are mma schools that advertise teaching mixed martial arts and fighters who list their style as MMA.
    How does that translate to a critical difference then?
    Soudns like you guys are just an MMA school, I'm guessing the name comes more from the need to put a martial arts "name" on most styles. Like Jackson's GaidoJujutsu :jerkit2yf
    Please reference original post for the story of how AJJ got it's name. Crawford's Judo/Jujitsu credentials are as good as anyone's, so he has every right to want his style to be jujitsu.

    I have been training AJJ for about 9 months now. I don't know what an x-guard, de la riva guard, spider guard, or rubber guard are. I know open guard and closed guard. If someone's guard is hard to pass I punch them from the top until it gets easier. If someone is in my guard, I try to sub them any way I can, pretty much instantly. If I can't, I drag them in and hit them until something presents itself.

    Does that sound like BJJ? If so than you are correct...there is no difference bewteen the two and this whole thread is moot.

    You sound very unhappy with AJJ. Do you resent that I compared it to BJJ? I did so because I was tired of answering the question to everyone, and thought it would make a good discussion. I have no interest in deciding which one is "better" or whether or not they are as dissimilar as I have alluded. Suffice it to say that From what I have observed, AJJ is much more to my liking. Because of the differences.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  4. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    881

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 9:24pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    A fair enough point. It is the risk one runs when one communicates in generalizations that these little semantic incongruities pop up. Would it be fair to say that many of the most skilled guard players are from Brazillian jujitsu? Or that when it comes to teaching the guard position, the best instruction is from BJJ curriculum (generally)?
    I suppose it works out that way, if you play the odds. Odds are that a wrestler will have good takedowns but poor submission skills- odds are that a BJJ fighter will have good submission skills and poor takedowns, but I think we can agree that the style you train in doesnt dictate the fighter you are. (Kenny Florian for example fights more like a boxer/striker than BJJ fighter)



    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    Sure would. "AJJ" was coined as a catch-all (somewhat facetiously, at the time). It was just as likely it could have been called any number of things.
    I understand what you mean now that Phrost explained it- MMA isnt exactly a "style" but a format of fighting. In a sense, traditional ju jitsu could be viewed as a mixed martial art in that it includes all phases of a fight- leave its practicality and success to be debated another time.
  5. UpaLumpa is offline
    UpaLumpa's Avatar

    Exasperated.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Descending into absurdity
    Posts
    6,977

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 9:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    Please reference original post for the story of how AJJ got it's name. Crawford's Judo/Jujitsu credentials are as good as anyone's, so he has every right to want his style to be jujitsu.
    So does Jackson, and nowhere in my post is an implication Crawford doesn't have the credentials. My point is that a lot of times such names are used because, at least in the early days of mma, people still wanted their martial arts japanese. Given the website (www.crawfordmma.com) I assume the retention of the jujutsu name is probably symptomatic of the same motivation. Given the ninja stuff I think my assumption has support.

    Nothing in your post contradicts that being one of the motivations (particularly given that outside of the internet most people don't know what bjj is, so there is no need for the differentiation you speak of). Nothing in my post indicates I think it is good or bad.
    I have been training AJJ for about 9 months now. I don't know what an x-guard, de la riva guard, spider guard, or rubber guard are. I know open guard and closed guard. If someone's guard is hard to pass I punch them from the top until it gets easier. If someone is in my guard, I try to sub them any way I can, pretty much instantly. If I can't, I drag them in and hit them until something presents itself.
    That's what people call mma.

    Does that sound like BJJ? If so than you are correct...there is no difference bewteen the two and this whole thread is moot.
    Actually in a lot of ways yes. That is similar to most mma gameplans, bjj influenced or otherwise. It also doesn't address what my comment was about.

    The guard is not the 'best' position to be in according to bjj dogma, a statement you accepted. An emphasis on the guard as a go to position was one of your stated key distinctions. Proficiency, even incredible skill, isn't the same as something being the key emphasis, which makes one of your key distinctions moot.

    A lot of such viewpoints seem, to me, to stem from observations of Royce and other Gracies in mma and their extensive use of the guard. This ignores the real key of bjj dogma: fight from where you have the best advantage (this is in fact the key principle of mma). The majority of Gracies aren't olympic level wrestlers, judoka or the equivalent in striking. Many of their opponents are. That puts them at a disadvantage striking and in takedowns. They most certainly are going to be more proficient from the guard than most opponents are at defending against submissions, at least in the early and mid nineties (the era a lot of people seem to draw their impression of bjj from).

    As for so called "sport bjj", from which you also seem to be drawing lots of your views from. Thats an entirely different animal. Just like straight wrestling, judo or boxing. The tactics that work in those three may get you clobbered in mma. The same is true for sport bjj. The distinction is not however as severe for bjj. Even today those successful in sport bjj are equally successful in mma (e.g. Rob Kahn, Justin Garcia and Tim Carpenter's recent success in their first foray into mma).
    You sound very unhappy with AJJ. Do you resent that I compared it to BJJ? I did so because I was tired of answering the question to everyone, and thought it would make a good discussion.
    Not at all. I'm a big fan of mma. However, I am always skeptical, based on personal experience, of the grappling ability of 'freestyle' or other mma schools, but that is a different issue that can't be resolved based on the lack of competitions in your area (though twice a year at least a dozen people from my school fly to competitions due to a lack of local competitions and we routinely drive 6+ hours to compete).

    My only issue has been that in some ways you have presented a cartoon version of bjj as buttscooting and as having lost its mma roots and training. This may be true for some schools, it certainly is true for my own interests, but it is hardly an accurate characterization.
    I have no interest in deciding which one is "better" or whether or not they are as dissimilar as I have alluded. Suffice it to say that From what I have observed, AJJ is much more to my liking. Because of the differences.
    I've been reading some of the drama fests on this board which makes your comment a little peculair given comments about picking the "best" training (an inanely subjective term) by your classmate Phrost. And given that you started the thread and feel the need to answer questions about how bjj and ajj differ, you clearly do care about whether they are dissimilar in the manner you describe.

    Whatever. I like mma, you like mma. You train mma.
    Last edited by UpaLumpa; 1/03/2006 9:27pm at .
  6. Scrapper is offline
    Scrapper's Avatar

    Fear and bullets.

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Dayville, Connecticut, United States
    Posts
    4,286

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 10:09pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    So does Jackson, and nowhere in my post is an implication Crawford doesn't have the credentials. My point is that a lot of times such names are used because, at least in the early days of mma, people still wanted their martial arts japanese. Given the website (www.crawfordmma.com) I assume the retention of the jujutsu name is probably symptomatic of the same motivation. Given the ninja stuff I think my assumption has support.

    Nothing in your post contradicts that being one of the motivations (particularly given that outside of the internet most people don't know what bjj is, so there is no need for the differentiation you speak of). Nothing in my post indicates I think it is good or bad.
    That's what people call mma.

    Actually in a lot of ways yes. That is similar to most mma gameplans, bjj influenced or otherwise. It also doesn't address what my comment was about.

    The guard is not the 'best' position to be in according to bjj dogma, a statement you accepted. An emphasis on the guard as a go to position was one of your stated key distinctions. Proficiency, even incredible skill, isn't the same as something being the key emphasis, which makes one of your key distinctions moot.

    A lot of such viewpoints seem, to me, to stem from observations of Royce and other Gracies in mma and their extensive use of the guard. This ignores the real key of bjj dogma: fight from where you have the best advantage (this is in fact the key principle of mma). The majority of Gracies aren't olympic level wrestlers, judoka or the equivalent in striking. Many of their opponents are. That puts them at a disadvantage striking and in takedowns. They most certainly are going to be more proficient from the guard than most opponents are at defending against submissions, at least in the early and mid nineties (the era a lot of people seem to draw their impression of bjj from).

    As for so called "sport bjj", from which you also seem to be drawing lots of your views from. Thats an entirely different animal. Just like straight wrestling, judo or boxing. The tactics that work in those three may get you clobbered in mma. The same is true for sport bjj. The distinction is not however as severe for bjj. Even today those successful in sport bjj are equally successful in mma (e.g. Rob Kahn, Justin Garcia and Tim Carpenter's recent success in their first foray into mma).
    Not at all. I'm a big fan of mma. However, I am always skeptical, based on personal experience, of the grappling ability of 'freestyle' or other mma schools, but that is a different issue that can't be resolved based on the lack of competitions in your area (though twice a year at least a dozen people from my school fly to competitions due to a lack of local competitions and we routinely drive 6+ hours to compete).

    My only issue has been that in some ways you have presented a cartoon version of bjj as buttscooting and as having lost its mma roots and training. This may be true for some schools, it certainly is true for my own interests, but it is hardly an accurate characterization.
    I've been reading some of the drama fests on this board which makes your comment a little peculair given comments about picking the "best" training (an inanely subjective term) by your classmate Phrost. And given that you started the thread and feel the need to answer questions about how bjj and ajj differ, you clearly do care about whether they are dissimilar in the manner you describe.

    Whatever. I like mma, you like mma. You train mma.


    That's all fair enough. Yes, AJJ is almost exclusively MMA-driven (almost), so your distinction/point of contention is valid. I accept this, and agree. It is just as likely Crawford would have referred to his curriculum as aiki-ninjutsu if this had been developed at a different time. the name was mostly irrelevant to him. As is damn near anything other than developing actual, observable fighting skill. Your observation that the need for japanese-sounding name for the syle was market-drven is also valid. I do not contend these points.

    Highlighted text, however, I think demonstrates your own bias. I have never contended that BJJ was anything less than an excellent style for fighting and competetition, and I freely admit it is probably the most evolved grappling style out there. As Gumby pointed out, many other styles are coming up to speed and the resulting amalgamations all have their own prejudices, but still adhere to the basic principles of good grappling.

    As I lack total immersion in BJJ culture and curriculum, I have only the observations I have made through board members, fight footage, old gracie videos and books, and rolling with the odd BJJ-er that comes in to Crawford's for reference. Under these conditions I have observed a heavy reliance on the guard for the set up and execution of subs, and for the defense of takedowns. I yield to your superior knowledge of BJJ, as you contend that this is not the case. (this is not sarcasm, If you do in fact know more than me on the subject, I happily stand corrected.)

    There is nothing wrong with being skeptical about the pure grappling performance of MMA school's and participants. It''s a valid distinction. Hence my original post.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  7. Cassius is offline
    Cassius's Avatar

    Moderator

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,989

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 10:57pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    I have been training AJJ for about 9 months now. I don't know what an x-guard, de la riva guard, spider guard, or rubber guard are. I know open guard and closed guard. If someone's guard is hard to pass I punch them from the top until it gets easier. If someone is in my guard, I try to sub them any way I can, pretty much instantly. If I can't, I drag them in and hit them until something presents itself.
    If it makes you feel any better, I didn't start playing with x-guard or de la riva until I was a blue, and I don't use "rubber guard" at all. I don't think spider guard wouldn't really work for no-gi grappling, so there would be little point to you learning it.

    From what I've learned about rubber guard, you might actually like it for your sub grappling style and MMA, though. Just not my cup of tea, currently.
  8. Phrost is offline
    Phrost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 1998
    Location
    Cow Town
    Posts
    19,115

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 11:20pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MMA is a ruleset under which Martial Artists compete, and a training method for that sport competition.

    We nailed this down a long time ago. It's a misnomer to call a style MMA, regardless of how many people use the term that way.
  9. Zendetta is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    SF Bay area
    Posts
    2,681

    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 11:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not to be a total smartass, but...

    what do 'things' really 'mean' anyway?

    A word is just a symbol - it doesn't 'mean' anything in an objective sense. The symbol is 'meaningful' in the way it interacts with someone's brain and nervous system. THe use and meaning of that symbol can (does) change over time.

    Practically speaking, a word 'means' whatever it symbolizes to the people using that word.

    MMA started as a rulset under which martial arts from various styles competed. I think its perfectly fair tosay that the symbol has changed and can now legitimately be used to indicate a (very distinct) 'style' of training and fighting.
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  10. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Philadelphia
    Posts
    881

    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 10:15am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    Gumby -- Since my last little tirade about guard-whores (don't know if you would remember that or not), I've come to appreciate how green my guard is/was. For the last two months, and until I feel like my guard is up to snuff, I've been/will be a total guard-pulling piece of ****.
    I pull guard in tournaments because its often the best course of action for me, even though I wouldnt mind playing takedowns. My instructor has actually yelled at me for playing on my feet and getting taken down. Purple belt matches are 7 minutes, so you can play off your feet a little bit. For some reason, fighting 6 minute no gi matches seen so quick I dont want to waste any time on my feet when I feel I can submit the person on the ground.

    As far as why I do it, it kinda formed out of neccessity- I wasnt a heavy guy, in fact I was a kid when I started training against adults who were much stronger and had wrestling experience- natrually I ended up on the bottom alot.

    My philosophy as to why I emphasize the guard so much is because being on your back in a fight is the worst place you can be. If you make the worst position in a fight your best technical position, then you'll be ready for when things go wrong.
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 34567 89 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.