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  1. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 7:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    No offense taken, since ascribing me 'grappling skills' is a compliment so charitable it borders on the delusional. That technique sounds interesting, 50% against large and skilled sounds far from dissapointing to me, and I'll try to find some people in class willing to let me give it a go.
    That is why grappling training is (IMO) vital to have good SD. Grappling -people manhandling eachother- is integral to combat. To ignore it or skim over it (as most mainstream arts do) is illogical. I'm not saying grappling is better than striking, but rather that any seperation of the two is artificial -that is why MMA is such a positive thing IMO.

    If you have so little regard for your own grappling skills, then dragging someone into guard to restrain them is asking hell of a lot of yourself.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  2. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2005 4:25am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    If you have so little regard for your own grappling skills, then dragging someone into guard to restrain them is asking hell of a lot of yourself.
    My grappling, though n00bish and clumsy, is still infinitely superior to my skills at any other range of fighting.
    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    The guard, in a whole, is not something I'd go for - it's just an alternative to being stuck flat on one's back. Better to use your legs to try and maintain control of the opponent than to give up control completely and allow oneself to be mounted, however better never being on your back at all.
    Depends what you mean by 'go for'. I obvisouly wouldn't select it, given the choice, over mount, but I'd generally rather have a skilled grappler in my guard than be in his. You'll often see BJJ guys in sparring grip fighting in order to get the opportunity to pull guard, as once in someone's guard you're just a sweep away from being mounted, and one mistake away from a whole catalogue of submissions.

    Once more for the cheap seats, the guard is not a purely defensive or stalling position, BJJ is all about making it an active and attacking one.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 12/29/2005 4:31am at .
  3. Bluto Blutarsky is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2005 3:21pm


     Style: Mostly drinking. E-chaun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the weakness of MMA is not in the skills, because different people chose different skillsets it is hard to have a uniform definition of what an MMA formula should be.

    Shouldn't ALL martial arts theoretically be Mixed?

    Meaning if you see something that works from one system, and the one you are training in doesn't have it or something to deal with that situation, shouldn't you freaking LEARN IT?

    Why is it that people studying any other non "martial" art like drawing, or a musical instrument are more than happy to pick up anything from any teacher that makes sense and can help them improve thier "art", but a martial artist is more likely to just poo-poo it without even examining it's validity?

    I can see wanting to learn the core of a system first so you have a fucking clue as to what is going on, but if you have someone else show you something why do people sometimes act like it is the end of the world and can only learn from one teacher or style?

    Just a thought, that the "style walls" which should define rather than exclude, are what keeps all mas from bieng "Mixed".
  4. TekkaMaki is offline
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    Trying to make sense of it all

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2005 6:44pm

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     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    TekkaMaki. I caught myself agreeing with some of what you're saying. Then I had some food and a shower and came back and read it again.

    And I realized that your comments are largely based on lack of understanding. You might be pissed at me for wording it like that, but the reason is:

    You seem to be under the impression that you can choose the progress of a fight. You can't. You see only failure where others may see options. You account only for yourself and your own preferences, instead of judging technique or strategy on a general basis. Since you have no other view to see this from, let me give you mine. I'm a small guy, and regardless of me actually meeting guys around my own weight, usually I will without a doubt have to meet larger people. Here's the alternative to what you're seeing. You're seeing a guy pull guard on purpose, attempting some stalling strategy and slowing down the "action". I'm seeing a guy who fails an attempt to control and perhaps throw his opponent and needs to regain a safer position instead of wildly scrambling for something "better" than guard, and leaving himself literally buttfucked. He pulls guard to ensure his safety. From here he can now work to: Get a better position by sweeps for instance. Or, defend himself and wait for an opportunity for submission.

    You seem to make the same assumption again and again, that somehow people are controlling the fight when opting for the guard. But different positions yield different chances and different results for different people. I will always be better off my back than in a "dominating" position for a number of reasons. I am small, people will believe I'm easily overpowered. They may find in a guard position that I am not. Because I'm small, I will often HAVE to utilise the guard to defend myself. Because this is what usually happens when grappling, crappling or anything else. I get a lot of training doing just that, and as a result this is where I improve the most.

    You say it's a bad idea to pull guard because you can get stacked and punched. Well if we follow you train of thought it's a bad idea to lie in someone elses guard too because you can be submitted. This is quite obvious to anyone with any remote skill, but again this is NOT a game of choice. If it is, then quite frankly, what the **** are you doing fighting at all, you should have won allready.

    The reason I comment at all is because from what you're saying it sounds like you're either crappling around with shitty people and have never actually met someone who uses the guard well. Or you have misunderstood the entire "big picture" of a fight if you will. The fact that this is not something to control and that knowing your positions and using their options will be crucial to anyone. And if something works, then why **** with it just because someone doesn't like it?

    Viewing the guard as a generally inferior position to most situations is one of the worst mistakes anyone can ever do.
    Not pissed off at all, I get what you're trying to say here but I think we might misunderstand one another. It would be pretty silly to think that one can choose the progress of a fight in any event, and I wouldn't want to make that kind of assumption.

    I do get where you're coming from. You see, I'm a very big guy, so I have a pretty different view of what I'd need to do to protect myself in some cases.

    I understand the idea of going to the guard position to avoid being submitted or mounted, as a contingency rather than a choice. What I was taking issue with was actually the intentional utilization of the guard position when it is not necessary.

    Now, for a small guy, I understand the guard is a good place to me. For the record, one of the guys I routinely grapple with won 1st place in the NY State BJJ Championships for his division, so I do roll with guys who know what they're doing, and hopefully that will shed some light on where it is I am coming from.

    He is alot smaller than I am, probably about half my weight. He winds up on his back with me in his closed guard pretty often, mainly because he is trying to stop me from obtaining a mount or side control position. However, he does utilize the guard very well and I have many times had to fight off his persistent triangle and armbar attempts.

    Because of the difference in size, he HAS to use his guard or else he'd be mounted and pretty much SOL. Usually, however, he tries to either take my back while we're still standing, or pull guard because his chances of taking me down are not as good as my chances of taking him down. Of course, I can't really get into his head too much. If I could, then I'd be winning BJJ comps instead of him.

    Now, the only problem I have with the guard position is that regardless of whether you have some control of your opponent, you are still underneath him. You can tout the usefulness of the guard all you want - and I totally agree that it is extremely useful as a defensive position. However, I would be hard pressed to acknowledge it as a good offensive or control position because regardless of what can be done from the guard, you are still on your back with your opponent on top of you.

    If I come off as someone who is putting down the guard, then I'm not expressing myself correctly. I don't debate that it's useful, I just feel that it is overused and I do not consider it to be a superior position. That's not to say that I don't consider it a valuable and important position - I utilize the guard when it is necessary, but I usually try to sweep right away and get the superior position. Yes, you can submit your opponent from the guard, but isn't it better to try and get the superior position first and submit him from there? From my POV as a big guy, it seems like it makes alot more sense to sweep and get on top then attempt a triangle or armbar, since these techniques are more difficult for me to execute quickly. (I have two speeds; slow speed and no speed.)

    Moving right along, BJJ was basically built upon the idea of a smaller guy using what he can to defeat bigger guys, which is why the guard is so important in that particular art. If it weren't a useful position, it wouldn't have been adapted by every other martial artist to steps into MMA competition. Another issue I have is that many such artists don't really know how to use the guard, so they just use it for stalling. I don't think that's even a subject of debate, because we've all seen a guy use the guard to stall, and we've all seen a guy using the guard to stall get submitted or pummeled. Of course, none of these guys were BJJ experts.

    So I think there is a definite quiestion of POV, and a matter of the ability of the guy on bottom. I've been tapped out from inside someone's guard many times when grappling, but I've also managed to neutralize, pass or ignore the guard. I don't argue the usefullness of guard, just the way some people use it. Excellent defensive position if used correctly, excellent transitional position if used correctly, even a good attack position if used expertly, but not a superior position.

    However, the main point I was trying to make is that even members of the legendary Gracie family have time and again laid on his back, his legs around an opponent's waist, his arms around the opponent's neck, and stalled during MMA competition. My problem is not with the guard and of itself, but with the guard being used in this manner, and, as I mentioned earlier, the use of the guard by fighters who don't understand it or know how to utilize it.

    I've actually argued in favor of the guard many times with a friend of mine who used to wrestle in high school. He's about 350 lbs right now, bigger than me by quite a bit. He insisted that the guard position was totally useless, coming from the wrestling mentality that your back is the last place you should be in any given situation. This discussion, of course, led to the rearrangement of all the furniture in his living room and a good hour or so of me using the guard to stop him from gaining position. My grappling being intermediate at best, I wasn't able to catch him with any submissions (especially since he's so freakin' huge it's really hard to get -and keep- a grip on him) but I drove the point home that the guard did stop him from mounting or striking.

    I'm long-winded, and since I have probably said the same thing in ten or so different ways I think I'll stop now.
  5. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2005 7:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Not pissed off at all, I get what you're trying to say here but I think we might misunderstand one another.

    *snip* (yes I did read it)

    I'm long-winded, and since I have probably said the same thing in ten or so different ways I think I'll stop now.
    I'm glad to see you're not completely lost on this. And I must admit that I may have a tendency to stick up for what is good for me and miss out on the objective view as well.

    In BJJ's positional chart the guard is by no means a superior position, but any position that awards some form of neutrality opens both fighters for damage. Spending time using, gaining and regaining guard will without a doubt be time well spent imho. And from my own very limited experience, I have often had more success pulling guard, using leverage and sweeping, than going for kuzushi and throwing or if already on the ground, trying to gain a more dominant position immediately. That's not to say that this won't work for larger guys either. But as a small guy, I'll often HAVE to try something like that. Although I play moronic newbie games like giving up positions I'm better at escaping from just because I believe I can escape easier, not contemplating that I'm often opening myself for more and easier submissions.

    I am not claiming to take anything I say as pure fact either. (a discussion goes both ways) I'm not particularily good. But in my experience, as mentioned, I will have to play a different game. And it may work for anyone, so there's no reason why you couldn't do it just because you are physically able to do something else.

    Often people's JJ show a little bit about themselves as well. (****. I better stop before I start getting all deep and retarted)
    More human than human is our motto.
  6. TekkaMaki is offline
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    Trying to make sense of it all

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:04pm

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     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is very difficult for me, as a larger guy, to pick up some elements of JJ because it really is geared toward a smaller guy beating a larger guy. For this reason, I have to play a different game and put my own spin on the art. What really stinks about it is that I almost never get to spar/roll with bigger guys than myself. The disadvantage being that when I roll with a guy who is heaver than I am, being in his mount is something to whichI am totally not accustomed. On the rare occasion that I do roll with a larger guy, it's a beginner so it's pretty easy to "out-technique" him.
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