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  1. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2005 2:01pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Sorry... I'm confused. Are you talking about judo 'turtling' or 'pulling the guard'.

    Turtling, sometimes called the 'chair position', is when you are face down on your elbows and knees, trying to keep your head and neck in.

    I can see that a desperate person might be able to attack from that position, but it might cost you a few hard boots to the head and ribs.
    Judo turtling. The context I've seen it in has been when I've come in for a choke, it hasn't worked, and then decided to try to get a shot in. As soon as I loosened, my partner pushed off his toes and hooked my knee.

    Actually, come to think of it, he shot one leg out to push toward me before he really launched.
  2. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2005 2:24pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Eh, step off the whole 'ninja' thing. I have never, nor do I now consider myself a "ninja." Seriously. I don't even own any black pajamas. My dojo is by no means the textbook ninjutsu school either. In fact, my head instructor is in hot water with Soke Tanemura because he teaches too many things outside the Genbukan curriculum. A little bit of kyokushin, a little bit of judo, a little boxing, some Sayoc Kali and anything else he decides to throw in there... which is why I still go there.
    Where do you train?
  3. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2005 4:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    Relative to a rar standing choke restraint?
    Given that I'm 5'6'' I may be absolutely unable to get a standing choke against a larger and/or stronger opponent, I think I might well pull guard and work for the choke from there. Is there any reason I absolutely shoudn't?
    In general MMA guys train to have a broad responce to a general situation rather than lots of really specifiuc moves -this approach favours Alive training and the Alive training builds the approach. That general approach is (IMO) equally applicable to SD except that some of the reference points are slightly different. The worry would be doing sport-orientated MMA training and subconsiously trying to apply the same responses (a few of which are not applicable) to SD. An analogy would be a Judoka who turtles up when knocked to the ground (a common tactic in Judo). Etc.
    Fair enough, I thought you meant teh dreaded 'situation drills' approach.
  4. TekkaMaki is offline
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    Trying to make sense of it all

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2005 8:26pm

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     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    It depends on context really. If I know help is on the way, i.e. I see the plods coming round the corner or my mate running to fetch his ICBM, then staying in guard and defending might be just the stall I need. Similarly it might work to defuse a situation, as it allows my opponent to construct a narrative where he put me down and gave me a kicking then strode off manfully, his honour restored.

    I think we can agree that the guard definitely has self defence applications, and I think any RBSD program that didn't teach it would be deficient.

    What do you mean by 'throwing guard'? I think dragging an opponent down into your guard could certainly have applications in this alleged 'real world', especially if your aim is control or restraint; while just lieing down probably much less so. I can't recall ever really seeing the latter in MMA, though I'm happy to be corrected.
    The only issue I have with pulling guard in SD (and true of MMA too) is that you open yourself up to a GNP. You really shouldn't put yourself on your back if you can avoid it. As a contingency, yes, I agree with it. This is the reason we see alot of guys in MMA doing the whole double-underhooks or hooks around the neck/shoulders when stuck in guard.
  5. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 8:18am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    The only issue I have with pulling guard in SD (and true of MMA too) is that you open yourself up to a GNP. You really shouldn't put yourself on your back if you can avoid it. As a contingency, yes, I agree with it. This is the reason we see alot of guys in MMA doing the whole double-underhooks or hooks around the neck/shoulders when stuck in guard.
    I'd plan to be on my back exactly as long as it took to sweep, armbar or triangle the fucker. Being in someone's guard is an inferior position, and I'd rather put him in mine than end up in his.
  6. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 2:52pm

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     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Given that I'm 5'6'' I may be absolutely unable to get a standing choke against a larger and/or stronger opponent, I think I might well pull guard and work for the choke from there. Is there any reason I absolutely shoudn't?
    .
    I'm reluctant to be giving out SD advice as I don't hold myself to be an authority. But I will give you my opinions.

    The restraint you suggest is so unreliable an d counter-productive as to be stupid (no offence) in SD. If you are restraining someone you really need to make it clear to them that you are in control -which is where little guys (myself included) are at a disadvantage. Deliberately putting yourself on the ground under him, even if you have him in a guillotine or whatever, leaves you with nowhere to hide if people joining in and kicking the **** out of you.

    An alturnative restraint that you may fanncy practicing is to tackle him low (not a proper shoot) and secure a good grip around his hips ("body lock" or whatever you choose to call it). Use it to manhandle him into a wall where you can use your grappling skills to remain dominant as you put him on the floor (against the wall) and pin/GnP/choke him. I've trained this in an alive fashion and the better your grappling skills, the more viable this approach is. It seems to work. On the down side, when we pressure tested it against a really big guy with some MMA training behind him, I could only achieve about 50% success (he weighed almost twice my weight).
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
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  7. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 5:02pm

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     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Eh, step off the whole 'ninja' thing. I have never, nor do I now consider myself a "ninja." Seriously. I don't even own any black pajamas. My dojo is by no means the textbook ninjutsu school either. In fact, my head instructor is in hot water with Soke Tanemura because he teaches too many things outside the Genbukan curriculum. A little bit of kyokushin, a little bit of judo, a little boxing, some Sayoc Kali and anything else he decides to throw in there... which is why I still go there.
    This does not mean you or your instructor are vaccinated against acting like a complete fucking retard.

    I also cross train as much as I can, and I often spar with MMA guys and roll with BJJ guys because I know how much this will improve my overall ability.

    I consider myself a progressive martial artist.
    Why don't you actually go to a legit MMA or BJJ gym?

    The death of MMA will be due to people like you, enthusiastic wannabes who think they're progressive rennaisance men when they question the self defense value of buttscooting. Simply put, you are unqualified to comment on MMA.

    As for your "arguement", maybe you didn't get the memo, but a long time ago we decided that arguing about the "street" and/or "multiple opponent" use of a technique makes you more than likely an ivory -towerfied man-child who makes Postmodern Analysts look like grizzled, veteran war reporters.

    If you can use guard in MMA, do it.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

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    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

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  8. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 5:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    An alturnative restraint that you may fanncy practicing is to tackle him low (not a proper shoot) and secure a good grip around his hips ("body lock" or whatever you choose to call it). Use it to manhandle him into a wall where you can use your grappling skills to remain dominant as you put him on the floor (against the wall) and pin/GnP/choke him. I've trained this in an alive fashion and the better your grappling skills, the more viable this approach is. It seems to work. On the down side, when we pressure tested it against a really big guy with some MMA training behind him, I could only achieve about 50% success (he weighed almost twice my weight).
    No offense taken, since ascribing me 'grappling skills' is a compliment so charitable it borders on the delusional. That technique sounds interesting, 50% against large and skilled sounds far from dissapointing to me, and I'll try to find some people in class willing to let me give it a go.
  9. TekkaMaki is offline
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    Trying to make sense of it all

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 6:41pm

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     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    This does not mean you or your instructor are vaccinated against acting like a complete fucking retard.
    No argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    Why don't you actually go to a legit MMA or BJJ gym?
    If I had the time or money to cross-train, I would. I've actually been on the fence for some time with respect to whether I want to quit and take BJJ instead, but it seems like a shame to do so after having put in so much time, effort and money. There is a local MMA club that I am going to look into as well, if it's not too expensive I will cross-train with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehoney
    The death of MMA will be due to people like you, enthusiastic wannabes who think they're progressive rennaisance men when they question the self defense value of buttscooting. Simply put, you are unqualified to comment on MMA.
    You're making some pretty bold assertions here. Also a biased assumption and you're doing a pretty good job of making yourself look like a judgemental asshole.
    The death of MMA will more likely be due to overspecialization. I'm enthusiastic to say the least, but I'm not some MMA wannabe. I would like to learn more about it, but I'm really not interested in competition. As far as being "unqualified to comment on MMA" that's retarded. People who watch football comment on that, people who watch boxing comment on that, people who watch MMA comment on it. Aside from the fact that there is nothing I have ever seen happen in an MMA ring that is remotely foreign to me. Am I an expert? No. But to say that only an expert is allowed to observe and disucss a subject is completely ludiscrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehoney
    As for your "arguement", maybe you didn't get the memo, but a long time ago we decided that arguing about the "street" and/or "multiple opponent" use of a technique makes you more than likely an ivory -towerfied man-child who makes Postmodern Analysts look like grizzled, veteran war reporters.

    If you can use guard in MMA, do it.
    See, there you go making a bold assertion that I'm doing something that I'm not doing by any means. I've never once in this thread used the terms "street" or "multiple opponents." Show me where I did and I'll let you have your cookie on this one, but no, I didn't, and that's not what this post was about. It was about the training in general and the application, where it can be improved or why it shouldn't.

    Nor would I use the term "butt-scooting." Having seen a few fights in which I wondered why a fighter was lying on his back letting his opponent kick his legs until he couldn't stand up anymore I doubted the usefulness of going to your back when your opponent is standing. It still seems like a goofy thing to do, although after listening to what people have had to say about it I think I may have been mistaken about that.

    If you want to get all uppity on someone for making this an argument about RBSD, then talk to KC.

    Now, back to the whole "pulling guard" debate. It just doesn't seem like a good idea to me, in MMA or anywhere else, and I hate it with a passion when people pull guard on me while grappling. Luckily, using my height I can stack out of it pretty easily. Now, we've all seen what happens when an MMA fighter gets stacked out of his guard. He gets punches rained down on him. So, pulling guard doesn't seem like a great idea. I've seen the pulling of guard being used for stalling alot as well, with the double underhooks or some other control on the head or body. However, the fighter pulling guard always winds up laying on his back, and while he isn't getting beaten, he can't really do anything else, either. Once he lets the control on the head or body go, his opponent is likely to begin striking, but at the same time he can't do anything to his opponent until he releases.

    Someone said earlier that in a self defense context they'd rather be in guard because it's a control position. It's not a control position, it's a defensive position. The man on top is no longer entirely in control, but neither is the man on bottom. The man on bottom is simply in a position from which he can regain control. The man on top can still pass, or he can ignore the guard and use punches or even go for the much hated can opener neck crank. Even more, in MMA we see sucky grapplers use the guard to stall, sometimes they get beaten anyway and only skilled grapplers are able to utilize the guard to win a fight.

    The guard, in a whole, is not something I'd go for - it's just an alternative to being stuck flat on one's back. Better to use your legs to try and maintain control of the opponent than to give up control completely and allow oneself to be mounted, however better never being on your back at all.
  10. fanatical is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 7:38pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TekkaMaki. I caught myself agreeing with some of what you're saying. Then I had some food and a shower and came back and read it again.

    And I realized that your comments are largely based on lack of understanding. You might be pissed at me for wording it like that, but the reason is:

    You seem to be under the impression that you can choose the progress of a fight. You can't. You see only failure where others may see options. You account only for yourself and your own preferences, instead of judging technique or strategy on a general basis. Since you have no other view to see this from, let me give you mine. I'm a small guy, and regardless of me actually meeting guys around my own weight, usually I will without a doubt have to meet larger people. Here's the alternative to what you're seeing. You're seeing a guy pull guard on purpose, attempting some stalling strategy and slowing down the "action". I'm seeing a guy who fails an attempt to control and perhaps throw his opponent and needs to regain a safer position instead of wildly scrambling for something "better" than guard, and leaving himself literally buttfucked. He pulls guard to ensure his safety. From here he can now work to: Get a better position by sweeps for instance. Or, defend himself and wait for an opportunity for submission.

    You seem to make the same assumption again and again, that somehow people are controlling the fight when opting for the guard. But different positions yield different chances and different results for different people. I will always be better off my back than in a "dominating" position for a number of reasons. I am small, people will believe I'm easily overpowered. They may find in a guard position that I am not. Because I'm small, I will often HAVE to utilise the guard to defend myself. Because this is what usually happens when grappling, crappling or anything else. I get a lot of training doing just that, and as a result this is where I improve the most.

    You say it's a bad idea to pull guard because you can get stacked and punched. Well if we follow you train of thought it's a bad idea to lie in someone elses guard too because you can be submitted. This is quite obvious to anyone with any remote skill, but again this is NOT a game of choice. If it is, then quite frankly, what the **** are you doing fighting at all, you should have won allready.

    The reason I comment at all is because from what you're saying it sounds like you're either crappling around with shitty people and have never actually met someone who uses the guard well. Or you have misunderstood the entire "big picture" of a fight if you will. The fact that this is not something to control and that knowing your positions and using their options will be crucial to anyone. And if something works, then why **** with it just because someone doesn't like it?

    Viewing the guard as a generally inferior position to most situations is one of the worst mistakes anyone can ever do.
    More human than human is our motto.
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