When I said the turtle was useful, I didn't mean it vis a vis the scenario we were talking about with the guard.
Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
It's much more than that. He missed the whole context and now you seem to have forgotten it too.
This entire line of "debate" is in response to that comment. He tried to suggest that not going down to the ground with someone should be considered stalling. lol. This has nothing to do with wether or not you walk out of a bar fight. It's about arguing that standing up and not climbing in between the guys legs is stalling.
Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
A fighter refusing to go to the ground to engage is as much stalling as a fighter pulling guard to pansy out of standup.
I only mentioned "real" fights as an example of why the logic is absurd and why we consider laying on the ground stalling but not standing up.
Would you go so far as to support that assertation? Do you consider standing over a downed opponent and waiting for him to get up again to be stalling?
Turtling is perfectly valid in a pure grappling context. It even works in MMA because of the protections against direct attacks to the spine or base of the neck. Take out those rules and it immediately becomes just about the most dangerous position you could possibly put yourself in.
From an SD perspective, the shortcomings of typical MMA are exactly the ones that the RBSD guys go on about; lack of weapon defence, lack of confrontation management (especially adrenaline), lack of multi-opponent training etc. Thatís not to say that the popular anti-MMA crowd donít overestimate or misapply those weaknesses, but they are plainly there.
You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM
just die already.
Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM
Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
No, fights start standing up, it's the responsibility of the ground fighter to bring it to the ground. I was just trying to say that in a real fight, if your objective isn't to batter someone's brains in but rather to escape unscathed, then using the guard to annoy someone until they call you a fag and walk away seems perfectly fine to me.
Originally Posted by Omar
See, that's what I mean about the context. I just realized you were arguing with an assertion that had already been taken out of it's original context.
If I take it in the other context again though, the street, you still have to distinguish between the kind of competition for the alpha male spot monkey fight vs. the "pack hunters looking for meat" fight. The guard position may work well for the first, especially if you don't give a **** about your status in the pack, but for the second, it comes up short again.. . although I suppose it's better than turtling up.
I think this pretty much sums up why UFC today looks different than UFC say 5 years ago.
Originally Posted by Teryan
Some of the points are arguable, such as the issue of time limits in the rounds and such. But the issue of carbon copy fighters is interesting in the UFC. I don't watch much of anything else, so I'm not really qualified to talk about MMA as a whole. Look at the UFC today and everyone looks like a carbon copy. Part of it probably has to do with there's are no more TMAs or random people coming in to fight a Gracie. Part of it probably has to do with the lack of more charismatic fighters and general favorites like tito or vitor. These days the common stereotype is big muscle jacked white dude who boxes for a while, might throw some knees, just works for ground and pound. Of course there are major exceptions, but the general majority is this.
One thing I don't like about the UFC is the cage. It hurts people's ability to use the guard effectively. The guy on top is using the ground and the cage as leverage and it's too hard for guy on bottom with guard to work any submission. Probably just the BJJ in me that's unhappy but still, watching the majority of guard games is much more fun when they are in the middle of the ring than when they are being crammed into the corner of the cage. But like its been said already, its a sport and there will be rules and strategies that form around those rules but eh.
Eh, step off the whole 'ninja' thing. I have never, nor do I now consider myself a "ninja." Seriously. I don't even own any black pajamas. My dojo is by no means the textbook ninjutsu school either. In fact, my head instructor is in hot water with Soke Tanemura because he teaches too many things outside the Genbukan curriculum. A little bit of kyokushin, a little bit of judo, a little boxing, some Sayoc Kali and anything else he decides to throw in there... which is why I still go there.
Originally Posted by Chanukah Harry
I also cross train as much as I can, and I often spar with MMA guys and roll with BJJ guys because I know how much this will improve my overall ability.
I consider myself a progressive martial artist.
Actually, I have to agree with this now that I've read a bit more from you guys and thought about it. It seems like going to one's back and pulling guard against a standing fighter is a useful defensive strategy. However, there is only one example of this ever resulting in a knockout and one retarded decision in which the guard puller won because he kept kicking his opponent in the legs. It may work for defensive purposes, but it's still stalling.
Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
lots of good discussion here, that makes me happy! I've had to change my mind a bit about pulling guard, but like one of the posts mentioned in a venue where you might have **** thrown at you it'd be bad... not that that's likely to happen. Maybe it's not such a bad idea after all, but I still retain that it's a sign of being gun-shy and stalling. Staying on one's back is avoiding getting KO'd.
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