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  1. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
    Fighting Cephalopod's Avatar

    Submitting 1d6 Investigators per round

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 5:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Actually, most of my observations are based on watching Pride.
    Then you're an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Both the standup player and the man on the ground are refusing to play at the range their opponent has chosen. Why is the guy refusing to go to the floor any less stalling than the player refusing to stand up? Watch Werdum vs. Kharitonov.
    All fights begin standing up. If someone wnats a fight on the ground, it is their responsibility to take their opponent down and get it there, not sit on their ass and hope their opponent feels like obliging them. Similarly, if someone wants a fight to stay standing up, it is their responsibility to defend the takedown and get back up from underneath, rather than clinging for dear life and hoping the referee obliges them.

    Takedowns, and even guard pulling, are aggressive attempts to control the area in which the fight takes place. Butt-scooting and clinging for a standup are attempts to get someone else to allow you to control the area in which the fight takes place in your favor. They do not demonstrate skill and should be penalized.
  2. PointyShinyBurn is offline
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 5:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    All fights begin standing up. If someone wnats a fight on the ground, it is their responsibility to take their opponent down and get it there, not sit on their ass and hope their opponent feels like obliging them. Similarly, if someone wants a fight to stay standing up, it is their responsibility to defend the takedown and get back up from underneath, rather than clinging for dear life and hoping the referee obliges them.

    Takedowns, and even guard pulling, are aggressive attempts to control the area in which the fight takes place. Butt-scooting and clinging for a standup are attempts to get someone else to allow you to control the area in which the fight takes place in your favor. They do not demonstrate skill and should be penalized.
    I think that's what I was trying to say, as long as you mean what I think you do by 'butt-scooting'.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 12/25/2005 5:41pm at .
  3. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

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    Aug 2004
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    Stockholm, Sweden
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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 5:40pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Then you're an idiot.



    All fights begin standing up. If someone wnats a fight on the ground, it is their responsibility to take their opponent down and get it there, not sit on their ass and hope their opponent feels like obliging them. Similarly, if someone wants a fight to stay standing up, it is their responsibility to defend the takedown and get back up from underneath, rather than clinging for dear life and hoping the referee obliges them.

    Takedowns, and even guard pulling, are aggressive attempts to control the area in which the fight takes place. Butt-scooting and clinging for a standup are attempts to get someone else to allow you to control the area in which the fight takes place in your favor. They do not demonstrate skill and should be penalized.
    Finally someone is making sense.
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  4. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 7:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Getting back to the hypothetical "real" fight...lol

    I'd like to see PointyShinyBurn laying on his back and buttscooting around a parking lot or a bar while the other guys screams at him, "Get up you fucking pansy!" and then starts throwing chairs at him if it's the bar or starts his car up drive over him while he butscoots his way across the parking lot.

    It's one thing to have game plan for the ground if it goes there but for the last ..I dunno...zillion years or so of human history, when one guy is standing and the other is on the ground and either can't or won't or is afraid to get up....that means he's had his ass whipped.

    I can't wait to see the next generation of Jujitsu fighters who, after realizing that the guy standing up could be considered to be stalling and not just the guy on the gound, go into the ring and immediately lay down on their back with their feet towards the other guy while the 2 fighters hollar at each other,

    "No you come down here..."

    "No YOU stand up! . .

    No you...

    No you....

    And no one gets to fight untill eithen the groundgfighter stands or the other fighter climbs reluctantly into his guard.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  5. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 7:22pm


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Some great points here.

    But the guard position is very effective if you have been knocked down and dont want your head kicked in.
    (I edited the comment to keep from confusing it with actual turtling.)

    It's a conceptual problem. Keeping your head away in guard works, but in the average fight, somebody standing up and another guy on the ground is the end of the fight, and right or wrong, the guy standing up is thought of as the winner, unless the guy gets back up again.

    I see nothing wrong with doing this; in a one on one fight the guy will either come to grapple or fail to kick you a few times, call you a fag and leave. I suppose if you want to win by decisively bearing somebody who stays standing, then you'll have to get up!

    As for judo-style turtling, I've seen a few guys who can stay aware and active in this position and really explode out into a counter. I used to diss it, but I've been converted.
  6. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 7:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still diss it because although it works well for Judo, in a striking world that means "please don't hurt me". It is the position assumed by children being brutalized by adults. It is what happens when someone without training gets jumped and is trying to limit the amount of internal organ damage from the stomping to just being kicked in the ribs untill a lung gets punctured.

    How usefull is turtling if strikes are allowed to the spine and the base of the neck?

    It's just taking advantage of the rules and is completely unrealistic.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. I aint punchy!? is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 7:54pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with Omar here....

    The standard assault seems to be: knock someone to the ground in some clumsy way, and then use your boots on them when they are down. The judo 'turtle' position is way open to kicks to the head and ribs... and these kicks will have the entire body and boot behind them.

    Now as for the guard position... if you get knocked down guard is a hell of a lot safer... but you can't just lie there and there is a risk you'll get hit as you try and stand. If you just lie there you are giving your assailant a chance to find some weapon lying around (something in the environment like a chair, or garden stake, or beer glass) and bring that to the fight.
  8. thomaspaine is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 10:39pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Now as for the guard position... if you get knocked down guard is a hell of a lot safer... but you can't just lie there and there is a risk you'll get hit as you try and stand. If you just lie there you are giving your assailant a chance to find some weapon lying around (something in the environment like a chair, or garden stake, or beer glass) and bring that to the fight.
    I don't think this is news to anyone in the jiu-jitsu world. But again, when we talk about "flaws in mma" are you talking about the sport, or mma as self-defense training? And the main way someone keeps me from standing up if they're up and i'm in the guard is by keeping constant pressure on me, so that I can't stand up without getting hit in the head. If the person turns around to pick up a chair or starts looking around for a weapon, then it wouldn't be too difficult to stand up. But this is starting to sound like a conversation where someone chimes in with "oh what if there's glass/lava/knives on the ground, try using the guard then." Cmon, hopefully we're beyond this by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams
    It's a conceptual problem. Keeping your head away in guard works, but in the average fight, somebody standing up and another guy on the ground is the end of the fight, and right or wrong, the guy standing up is thought of as the winner, unless the guy gets back up again.

    I see nothing wrong with doing this; in a one on one fight the guy will either come to grapple or fail to kick you a few times, call you a fag and leave. I suppose if you want to win by decisively bearing somebody who stays standing, then you'll have to get up!
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the guard is..."the guard", not the "ass kicking position" or the "prepare to get fucked up position". It's mainly a defensive position, and if the person on top won't give the person on bottom enough space to stand up without fear of getting hit, then what else can bottom man do? Or if I'm a crappy striker, then scooting around on my butt and upkicking or trying to pull my opponent into my guard is better than getting knocked out. And btw, in my opinion if all the guy does is call you a fag and walk away, then the guard did its job because you didn't get fucked up.
  9. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 2:49am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I still diss it because although it works well for Judo, in a striking world that means "please don't hurt me". It is the position assumed by children being brutalized by adults. It is what happens when someone without training gets jumped and is trying to limit the amount of internal organ damage from the stomping to just being kicked in the ribs untill a lung gets punctured.

    How usefull is turtling if strikes are allowed to the spine and the base of the neck?

    It's just taking advantage of the rules and is completely unrealistic.
    Turtling against someone who can stand and hit you before you can unturtle is probably a bad idea. Someone who is good at using it will also explode out of it into a takedown the moment you decide this is a good idea. Mind you, this is from X-training with a BJJ guy who seemd to make it work, so I'm not in a position to say anything more than that fact that I've been shown some applications that I think make sense.
    Last edited by eyebeams; 12/26/2005 2:56am at .
  10. eyebeams is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 2:54am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thomaspaine
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but the guard is..."the guard", not the "ass kicking position" or the "prepare to get fucked up position". It's mainly a defensive position, and if the person on top won't give the person on bottom enough space to stand up without fear of getting hit, then what else can bottom man do? Or if I'm a crappy striker, then scooting around on my butt and upkicking or trying to pull my opponent into my guard is better than getting knocked out. And btw, in my opinion if all the guy does is call you a fag and walk away, then the guard did its job because you didn't get fucked up.
    I agree. I'm saying that the main problem is that it doesn't socially feel like "winning" to most people. And I'll make a generalized statement and say that people who are training to win the after last call fights they fantasize about getting into are exactly the kind of people who would not find this solution satisfying. I have a sneaking suspicion that about half the people who say that they would be mature enough do something like that and risk losing face are lying, basically. Has nothing to do with the technique, though.
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