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  1. TekkaMaki is offline
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    Trying to make sense of it all

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 1:30am

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    The Fundamental Flaws of Mixed Martial Arts

    Don't let the name of this thread fool you. This is not a MMA bashing thread or anything like that. My intention with this topic is to discuss a few glaring flaws I have seen in mixed martial arts competition and training and hopefully we'll get some good discussion going on how this could be changed/fixed or, for those who disagree, why it shouldn't.

    These are some fundamental flaws I have noticed in MMA training and competition:

    The advent of time limits has completely changed the game.
    Before time limits, the point of any MMA (or vale tudo, at that time) match was to win by knockout or by submission. There were no time limits and no judges. Also, there were no rounds. It is pretty common that we see fighters very nearly defeated with a submission hold, but who manage to stall just long enough for the round to end. At the beginning of the following round, the fighters return to a standing position in the middle of the ring. Granted, today's fighters are conditioned very well and most of them can fight for long periods of time without giving up a submission or an opportunity for a knockout. While imposing a time limit has lessened the chances of serious injury to the fighters and made sure matches didn't go on forever, the breaking up of rounds has made it possible for some fighters to use stalling and turtling to their advantage.

    "Technical Knockouts" are not always knockouts.
    Don't get me wrong, here. I don't think these fighters should be put in more danger than they already are. For the most part, MMA is actually safer right now than professional boxing. We'll probably never see a Moo Duk Kim incident in MMA. However, I think that those who are proponents of the realism of MMA will have to agree that there is really no telling what would have or could have happened after the referee stops the fight. While it is a safe bet that the fighter who was claimed the victor would pummel his opponent into sleepyland, it is also entirely possible for a significantly rocked fighter to regain his composure. The main flaw here is that it falls under the referee's discretion, and sometimes referees make bad calls.

    If you go to a standing/down guard position in a real fight, you're retarded.
    It is not uncommon in some MMA organizations for a fighter to drop to his back or remain on his back while his opponent is standing up after escaping from a bad position. The fighter on the ground then uses his legs to push, kick and annoy the other fighter. This position has almost no chance whatsoever of any kind of payoff in the ring, and the only reason fighters get away with it is because said organizations prohibit the stomping of the face while an opponent is on his back. In a situation in which this is allowed, the man on his back is going to be stomped all over the goddamn place.

    Fighters train grappling, striking and clinching separately and get stuck in "modes."

    I have seen far too many MMA/NHB fights in which a fighter in the dominant position fails to take advantage of an opportunity to strike his opponent because he is caught in "grappling mode." On the other side of that same coin, fighters also get KOed because they get stuck in "striking mode" against someone who they have no business standing up with. Alot of MMA gyms don't train that transition. They practice boxing for awhile, then take off the gloves and practice grappling, usually from the knees, and then they practice clinch techniques and some more boxing or muay thai at the end of the training session. This is a pretty common routine. Shootfighters who are successful in MMA are usually successful because shootfighters train for all ranges of combat collectively.

    Just about any MMA fight can be won with two key elements.
    Few would argue that a well timed takedown followed immediately by a ground and pound would end most MMA fights by submission or TKO relatively quickly. A fighter on his back can try to strike upward, but has little to know power. The fighter on top can easily ignore his punches and pound him into the mat. This is the very same strategy some idiot you get into a fight with at the bar would employ, he just wouldn't be as good at it. Because fighters get stuck in "modes" they often miss the opportunity to end the fight quickly this way.

    Way too many wild punches.
    I will stand by that I have yet to see a really good boxer in MMA. Every time I see two fighters duke it out in an MMA ring, I see two guys who are supposed to be skilled martial artists just swinging at each other. These guys train in boxing every day, but when they step in the ring they're throwing haymakers. It just doesn't seem right. Every once in a great while you'll see a right cross KO a guy, but more often than not the fighters are just wailing on each other with very little science or technique involved. These guys need to learn to keep their heads after getting hit.

    Stagnant conservation of the Status Quo
    There are some very specific guidelines as to what should be present in a MMA ring. What this is producing today is alot of fighters who are carbon copies of one another. Nearly every fighter in PRIDE is a wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player with some striking ability, and nearly every fighter in UFC is a big puncher who knows just enough grappling to not get trounced by a good grappler. This makes the sport stagnate, and it sends the message that innovation is a bad thing. In a few years it's going to be a guy who gets in the ring and does something totally out of the realm, like capoeira or *gasp* open hand strikes that is going to change the face of MMA. If this does not happen, the sport will never grow and the art form of MMA will stagnate and die. Even Cro-Cop with his high KO kicks sent a message: innovators dominate MMA and there are far too few innovators.

    Again, I urge you to bear in mind here that I'm not trying to put down MMA. In a quest for evolving our martial arts it is a step in the right direction. I'm a big fan of MMA and it has influenced my own concept of martial arts tremendously. In a situation in which I feel physically threatened I am far more likely to use a combination of boxing punches, wrestling takedowns and jiu jitsu ground work than I am to use straight up traditional JJ techniques. However, if we are going to evolve our arts and our combat sports, we have to address the weaknesses of MMA as well as its strengths.
    Last edited by TekkaMaki; 12/25/2005 11:44am at .
  2. LAVATORR is offline
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    You Don't Know What Turtle Is, Do You?
  3. TekkaMaki is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAVATORR
    You Don't Know What Turtle Is, Do You?
    Sorry about that, wrong terminology. When I say 'turtle' I mean 'lay there on your back.' You know, as though you were a turtle who rolled onto its back and can't get up.

    I forgot about that whole elbows and knees on the mat like a turtle in its shell thing. That sucks, too.
    Last edited by TekkaMaki; 12/25/2005 2:14am at .
  4. Teryan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 2:18am


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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    The advent of time limits has completely changed the game.
    Before time limits, the point of any MMA (or vale tudo, at that time) match was to win by knockout or by submission. There were no time limits and no judges. Also, there were no rounds. It is pretty common that we see fighters very nearly defeated with a submission hold, but who manage to stall just long enough for the round to end. At the beginning of the following round, the fighters return to a standing position in the middle of the ring. Granted, today's fighters are conditioned very well and most of them can fight for long periods of time without giving up a submission or an opportunity for a knockout. While imposing a time limit has lessened the chances of serious injury to the fighters and made sure matches didn't go on forever, the breaking up of rounds has made it possible for some fighters to use stalling and turtling to their advantage.
    This has brought MMA into the main stream. It's no longer a brutal fight it out kick them until their down, it's now a sport. Old school MMA would never be excepted unless rules and regulations were put in.


    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    "Technical Knockouts" are not always knockouts.
    Don't get me wrong, here. I don't think these fighters should be put in more danger than they already are. For the most part, MMA is actually safer right now than professional boxing. We'll probably never see a Moo Duk Kim incident in MMA. However, I think that those who are proponents of the realism of MMA will have to agree that there is really no telling what would have or could have happened after the referee stops the fight. While it is a safe bet that the fighter who was claimed the victor would pummel his opponent into sleepyland, it is also entirely possible for a significantly rocked fighter to regain his composure. The main flaw here is that it falls under the referee's discretion, and sometimes referees make bad calls.
    I disagree (for the most part). When some one gets mounted and cant defend intenglenty aginst the person on top of them, the fight should be called off. Yes referees make bad calls but not too often. It comes down to if you would rather have the fight finished or the fight be safe?

    Rember MMA is a sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    If you go to a turtle position in a real fight, you're retarded.
    It is not uncommon in some MMA organizations for a fighter to drop to his back or remain on his back while his opponent is standing up after escaping from a bad position. The fighter on the ground then uses his legs to push, kick and annoy the other fighter. This position has almost no chance whatsoever of any kind of payoff in the ring, and the only reason fighters get away with it is because said organizations prohibit the stomping of the face while an opponent is on his back. In a situation in which this is allowed, the man on his back is going to be stomped all over the goddamn place.
    What organizations are that? Never seene it done in Pride, and I can't think of a fight in the UFC, or KOTC when it happened. Turtling only seems to work in judo.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Fighters train grappling, striking and clinching separately and get stuck in "modes."

    I have seen far too many MMA/NHB fights in which a fighter in the dominant position fails to take advantage of an opportunity to strike his opponent because he is caught in "grappling mode." On the other side of that same coin, fighters also get KOed because they get stuck in "striking mode" against someone who they have no business standing up with. Alot of MMA gyms don't train that transition. They practice boxing for awhile, then take off the gloves and practice grappling, usually from the knees, and then they practice clinch techniques and some more boxing or muay thai at the end of the training session. This is a pretty common routine. Shootfighters who are successful in MMA are usually successful because shootfighters train for all ranges of combat collectively.
    That is the fighters traning fault, not the rules they are fighting under.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Just about any MMA fight can be won with two key elements.
    Few would argue that a well timed takedown followed immediately by a ground and pound would end most MMA fights by submission or TKO relatively quickly. A fighter on his back can try to strike upward, but has little to know power. The fighter on top can easily ignore his punches and pound him into the mat. This is the very same strategy some idiot you get into a fight with at the bar would employ, he just wouldn't be as good at it. Because fighters get stuck in "modes" they often miss the opportunity to end the fight quickly this way.
    I don't see very many people get taken down then get pounded on with in 30 seconds, yea it happens but not often. It seems most people that take some one down, end up in side control or guard and work from their. Not double leg instant mount GnP'. BJJ fighters are pretty good at fighting from their back and negating punches from the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Way too many wild punches.
    I will stand by that I have yet to see a really good boxer in MMA. Every time I see two fighters duke it out in an MMA ring, I see two guys who are supposed to be skilled martial artists just swinging at each other. These guys train in boxing every day, but when they step in the ring they're throwing haymakers. It just doesn't seem right. Every once in a great while you'll see a right cross KO a guy, but more often than not the fighters are just wailing on each other with very little science or technique involved. These guys need to learn to keep their heads after getting hit.
    Their are great strikes out their that KTFO of people (Liddle for ex). But if some one who trains day in and day out in punching and starts throwing hay makers, it's their fault not the rules or organizations they fight under.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Stagnant conservation of the Status Quo
    There are some very specific guidelines as to what should be present in a MMA ring. What this is producing today is alot of fighters who are carbon copies of one another. Nearly every fighter in PRIDE is a wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player with some striking ability, and nearly every fighter in UFC is a big puncher who knows just enough grappling to not get trounced by a good grappler. This makes the sport stagnate, and it sends the message that innovation is a bad thing. In a few years it's going to be a guy who gets in the ring and does something totally out of the realm, like capoeira or *gasp* open hand strikes that is going to change the face of MMA. If this does not happen, the sport will never grow and the art form of MMA will stagnate and die. Even Cro-Cop with his high KO kicks sent a message: innovators dominate MMA and there are far too few innovators.
    I don't think that setting rules to fight under stops innovation. I think people looking at works and doing a carbon copy of that fighter is what stops innovation. When MMA grows some more, more innovation will come and rules will change (for better or worse). I also bet capoeira does not become the new MMA trend.
  5. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    When you say flaws in MMA what do you mean? Do you mean as a sport, or as something else.
  6. Jitsuman is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Don't let the name of this thread fool you. This is not a MMA bashing thread or anything like that. My intention with this topic is to discuss a few glaring flaws I have seen in mixed martial arts competition and training and hopefully we'll get some good discussion going on how this could be changed/fixed or, for those who disagree, why it shouldn't.

    These are some fundamental flaws I have noticed in MMA training and competition:

    The advent of time limits has completely changed the game.
    Before time limits, the point of any MMA (or vale tudo, at that time) match was to win by knockout or by submission. There were no time limits and no judges. Also, there were no rounds. It is pretty common that we see fighters very nearly defeated with a submission hold, but who manage to stall just long enough for the round to end. At the beginning of the following round, the fighters return to a standing position in the middle of the ring. Granted, today's fighters are conditioned very well and most of them can fight for long periods of time without giving up a submission or an opportunity for a knockout. While imposing a time limit has lessened the chances of serious injury to the fighters and made sure matches didn't go on forever, the breaking up of rounds has made it possible for some fighters to use stalling and turtling to their advantage.

    "Technical Knockouts" are not always knockouts.
    Don't get me wrong, here. I don't think these fighters should be put in more danger than they already are. For the most part, MMA is actually safer right now than professional boxing. We'll probably never see a Moo Duk Kim incident in MMA. However, I think that those who are proponents of the realism of MMA will have to agree that there is really no telling what would have or could have happened after the referee stops the fight. While it is a safe bet that the fighter who was claimed the victor would pummel his opponent into sleepyland, it is also entirely possible for a significantly rocked fighter to regain his composure. The main flaw here is that it falls under the referee's discretion, and sometimes referees make bad calls.

    If you go to a turtle position in a real fight, you're retarded.
    It is not uncommon in some MMA organizations for a fighter to drop to his back or remain on his back while his opponent is standing up after escaping from a bad position. The fighter on the ground then uses his legs to push, kick and annoy the other fighter. This position has almost no chance whatsoever of any kind of payoff in the ring, and the only reason fighters get away with it is because said organizations prohibit the stomping of the face while an opponent is on his back. In a situation in which this is allowed, the man on his back is going to be stomped all over the goddamn place.

    Fighters train grappling, striking and clinching separately and get stuck in "modes."

    I have seen far too many MMA/NHB fights in which a fighter in the dominant position fails to take advantage of an opportunity to strike his opponent because he is caught in "grappling mode." On the other side of that same coin, fighters also get KOed because they get stuck in "striking mode" against someone who they have no business standing up with. Alot of MMA gyms don't train that transition. They practice boxing for awhile, then take off the gloves and practice grappling, usually from the knees, and then they practice clinch techniques and some more boxing or muay thai at the end of the training session. This is a pretty common routine. Shootfighters who are successful in MMA are usually successful because shootfighters train for all ranges of combat collectively.

    Just about any MMA fight can be won with two key elements.
    Few would argue that a well timed takedown followed immediately by a ground and pound would end most MMA fights by submission or TKO relatively quickly. A fighter on his back can try to strike upward, but has little to know power. The fighter on top can easily ignore his punches and pound him into the mat. This is the very same strategy some idiot you get into a fight with at the bar would employ, he just wouldn't be as good at it. Because fighters get stuck in "modes" they often miss the opportunity to end the fight quickly this way.

    Way too many wild punches.
    I will stand by that I have yet to see a really good boxer in MMA. Every time I see two fighters duke it out in an MMA ring, I see two guys who are supposed to be skilled martial artists just swinging at each other. These guys train in boxing every day, but when they step in the ring they're throwing haymakers. It just doesn't seem right. Every once in a great while you'll see a right cross KO a guy, but more often than not the fighters are just wailing on each other with very little science or technique involved. These guys need to learn to keep their heads after getting hit.

    Stagnant conservation of the Status Quo
    There are some very specific guidelines as to what should be present in a MMA ring. What this is producing today is alot of fighters who are carbon copies of one another. Nearly every fighter in PRIDE is a wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player with some striking ability, and nearly every fighter in UFC is a big puncher who knows just enough grappling to not get trounced by a good grappler. This makes the sport stagnate, and it sends the message that innovation is a bad thing. In a few years it's going to be a guy who gets in the ring and does something totally out of the realm, like capoeira or *gasp* open hand strikes that is going to change the face of MMA. If this does not happen, the sport will never grow and the art form of MMA will stagnate and die. Even Cro-Cop with his high KO kicks sent a message: innovators dominate MMA and there are far too few innovators.

    Again, I urge you to bear in mind here that I'm not trying to put down MMA. In a quest for evolving our martial arts it is a step in the right direction. I'm a big fan of MMA and it has influenced my own concept of martial arts tremendously. In a situation in which I feel physically threatened I am far more likely to use a combination of boxing punches, wrestling takedowns and jiu jitsu ground work than I am to use straight up traditional JJ techniques. However, if we are going to evolve our arts and our combat sports, we have to address the weaknesses of MMA as well as its strengths.
    I'm going to make the assumption that the flaws you see in MMA, have to do with so-called "street-fighting". Based on that assumption I will respond, point by point. Though you did make it fairly clear in my mind that you are talking about "realistic streefighting situations" when you said "If you go to a turtle position in a real fight, you're retarded."


    1. 'time limits'. You criticize MMA for having time limits. Are not their time limits in real fights? Do they usually last 20 minutes? How long before the police show up?

    If you can't finish a street-fight in 5 minutes, you're fucked either way. Most streetfights only last a few seconds.

    2. 'technical knockouts'. Most knockouts in street-fights are of the technical sort. Meaning that it's rare you see a guy knocked totally unconscious. The fight is usually "over" when one guy is too messed up to continue, gives up, runs away, or the cops come, or his friends jump in, whatever. TKO's are common in MMA and streetfights both.

    3. the "turtle position" actually refers to when a guy is face down, with his legs and arms under him. Not face up. the former is fairly common in the streetfights I've seen and been in, and it happens when one guy turns over from mount or getting kicked while he's down to protect his face and vital organs. it's very instinctual and happens all the time.

    4. I disagree with your concept of "modes". Smart fighters AND those fighting off instinct both, will be able to figure out quite quickly that punching a guy works from half guard, and any other "pure grappling" position. When a wrestler gets in a streetfight, he doesn't stop when he gets the pin. (at least from what I've seen) he continues to punch the guy while he's holding him down.

    5. they seem like "carbon copies" because we all have 2 arms, 2 legs, and there are only so many ways to kick and punch. MMA seems to be so 'similar' because it is composed of what works. period.

    6. wild punches happen much more in streetfights than in MMA. The reason why top boxers dont fight in MMA is because the money sucks compared to pro-boxing, AND they'd lose.

    7. ummm, that's it.
    Last edited by Jitsuman; 12/25/2005 3:16am at .
  7. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    If you go to a turtle position in a real fight, you're retarded.
    It is not uncommon in some MMA organizations for a fighter to drop to his back or remain on his back while his opponent is standing up after escaping from a bad position. The fighter on the ground then uses his legs to push, kick and annoy the other fighter. This position has almost no chance whatsoever of any kind of payoff in the ring, and the only reason fighters get away with it is because said organizations prohibit the stomping of the face while an opponent is on his back. In a situation in which this is allowed, the man on his back is going to be stomped all over the goddamn place.
    And yet, strangely, in the many, many MMA organizations that do not prohibit stomping of the face, people still go to this position and do not get "stomped all over the goddamn place".

    If you're going to make a thread about the flaws of MMA competition, it helps to have watched something other than the UFC.
  8. thomaspaine is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    If you go to a turtle position in a real fight, you're retarded.
    It is not uncommon in some MMA organizations for a fighter to drop to his back or remain on his back while his opponent is standing up after escaping from a bad position. The fighter on the ground then uses his legs to push, kick and annoy the other fighter. This position has almost no chance whatsoever of any kind of payoff in the ring, and the only reason fighters get away with it is because said organizations prohibit the stomping of the face while an opponent is on his back. In a situation in which this is allowed, the man on his back is going to be stomped all over the goddamn place.
    I'm pretty sure that by "turtle" you mean the guard, and Pride allows kicking downed opponents. I'm not saying that lieing in the guard while your opponent is standing is the best strategy, but it has worked for some people. Allan Goes used this exact strategy against Sakuraba to dominate the fight, and Renzo Gracie has a famous knockout with the upkick. Granted, you will usually get the crap kicked out of your legs, but sometimes it's difficult to stand back up and being in the guard is better than getting kicked in the head or giving up some other position. Also, you usually see this technique used by grapplers who are not very good strikers, and don't really want to stand up anyway, aka Royler Gracie, Antonio Schembri, etc. The point is, I think you underestimate the usefullness guard (although I admit that I think many fighters overestimate it).

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Just about any MMA fight can be won with two key elements.
    Few would argue that a well timed takedown followed immediately by a ground and pound would end most MMA fights by submission or TKO relatively quickly. A fighter on his back can try to strike upward, but has little to know power. The fighter on top can easily ignore his punches and pound him into the mat. This is the very same strategy some idiot you get into a fight with at the bar would employ, he just wouldn't be as good at it. Because fighters get stuck in "modes" they often miss the opportunity to end the fight quickly this way.
    Um, I would argue this. The primary purpose of the guard isn't to strike but to nullify the strikes of the person on top and minimize the damage he does. Also, punching while in the guard can open you up to submissions, so you have to be careful. It seems like you're saying that passing the guard is a waste of time and that the person on top should just unload, which is a strategy I think a lot of people would disagree with.


    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Way too many wild punches.
    I will stand by that I have yet to see a really good boxer in MMA. Every time I see two fighters duke it out in an MMA ring, I see two guys who are supposed to be skilled martial artists just swinging at each other. These guys train in boxing every day, but when they step in the ring they're throwing haymakers. It just doesn't seem right. Every once in a great while you'll see a right cross KO a guy, but more often than not the fighters are just wailing on each other with very little science or technique involved. These guys need to learn to keep their heads after getting hit.
    I've been told that it's harder to maintain good technical punches in mma because grappling fatigues the shoulders a lot. It may be true, but I'm not a striker so I can't really comment much on this. However, I generally think that this type of crticism of mma striking is made by people who don't have much mma striking experience, and either don't understand the difference between striking in mma and boxing, or they think that striking should look like the matrix.

    Quote Originally Posted by TekkaMaki
    Stagnant conservation of the Status Quo
    There are some very specific guidelines as to what should be present in a MMA ring. What this is producing today is alot of fighters who are carbon copies of one another. Nearly every fighter in PRIDE is a wrestler or Jiu Jitsu player with some striking ability, and nearly every fighter in UFC is a big puncher who knows just enough grappling to not get trounced by a good grappler. This makes the sport stagnate, and it sends the message that innovation is a bad thing. In a few years it's going to be a guy who gets in the ring and does something totally out of the realm, like capoeira or *gasp* open hand strikes that is going to change the face of MMA. If this does not happen, the sport will never grow and the art form of MMA will stagnate and die. Even Cro-Cop with his high KO kicks sent a message: innovators dominate MMA and there are far too few innovators.
    I don't really understand this. You say that the sport is sending the message that innovations is a bad thing, and then you say Cro-Cop's kicks sent a message that innovators dominate MMA. Which is it? And if you're a professional fighter, doesn't it make more sense to train X hours a day in something you've seen work consistently in the ring rather than train X hours a day in something you've never seen work in the ring? You have to assume that somewhere out there, someone is trying out his crazy ass style of kung fu or capoeira or whatever in an MMA show, and it either works or it doesn't. If it works, then more people will do it, or that guy will get to Pride or the UFC and everyone will go, "holy ****, drunken monkey breakdancing ninjutsu works, I better go check that out." Sure, there's some unorthodox stuff out there that works, but the reason it's unorthodox is because it's a lower percentage move than the orthodox stuff.
  9. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    Personally, I don't like all the weight limit stuff. One of my favorite old UFCs was the "David vs. Goliath" one. Plus, Hoyce used to whip on people way out of his weight class. Yeah, I understand that it's somewhat necessary now, but could we mix it up sometimes?

    Plus, I don't like how MMA seems to be geared toward the "I'm bigger than you so I can kick your ass" sort of mentality that I see. I've really felt more and more like there are too many meatheads in there.

    And this is coming from a guy who weighs a good 145... maybe 150 if I haven't pooped in a while.

    Dagon
    Last edited by Dagon Akujin; 12/25/2005 3:30am at . Reason: Dagon is an idiot.
  10. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not one to criticize other styles but, the comedy of a Ninja and a ?ing ?un practitioner discussing the "Many Flaws of MMA" is definitely not lost on me.
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