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  1. PoleFighter is offline

    Professional Swede

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 7:15pm


     Style: Sandbagged BJJ white belt

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    A critical article on the Bujinkan?

    A friend of mine recently e-mailed me to tell me that she has started training in Bujinkan. The e-mail was full of talk about how she was learning ancient, secret ninja techniques. I am going to e-mail her back soon telling her to be wary about martial arts school and their business practices. In addition to all the normal do-they-spar, what do-they-charge-for-belts fare, I feel that it would be a good idea to include an article that takes a critical look at the Bujinkan and its history. This is important, because I think that one of the main reasons she chose the bujinkan was that she wanted to learn an ancient, preserved warrior art. I feel that she should at leat be aware of the controversies surrounding it.

    I seem to remember reading something on the internet about a year ago written by an american, who had been very high up in the organisation, after leaving it. Does anyone know which article Im talking about, or have anything else for me?
    I pointed at him [the panhandler], bringing my rear hand up in a subtle approximation of the double Wu Sau guard that is the default hand position in Wing Chun Kung Fu.

    "Step away," I hissed.
    -Phil Elmore
  2. Mosquito is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 7:20pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know what article you are refering too, but imho it will be ill suited to your purposes. The guys main idea is that while technically sound, Bujinkan is filled with a "dark warrior spirituallity" and he now practises some kind of christian ninpo instead.

    Anyway, not sure if I can dig it up, I remember seeing it on swedish portal kampsport.se.
  3. Spunky is offline

    Registered Member

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    Minneapolis
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    Posted On:
    12/25/2005 8:20pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're probably thinking of Alex Mordine, whom for the record I've heard from more than one source was known as kind of a tool when he WAS training. The article he wrote up did make a couple valid points, despite being biased for more than one reason IMO. Namely, the break-step method of demonstration frequently used that provides an unrealistic illusion of time to perform certain techniques.

    Now, sometimes this occurs in demonstration for good reason (when pointing out important technical information) and doesn't influence the instructor's technique other than having to adjust for a fidgety ite, but it has become more of a crutch than a tool any many instances. You see a lot of demos where the instructor is clearly relying on those pauses to make his technique "work," and of course the students trying to do it with realistic timing get nowhere with it... and unfortunately those who only have experience under that one teacher chalk this failure up to their own inability, and the whole thing turns into the vicious cycle of falsely diefying the bad instructor (who probably just doesn't know any better).

    That said, I'm curious if your friend is really being sold this pitch of "secret ninja techniques" or if its derived from some of the cheesy Hayes literature. I certainly don't know of any "secret techniques" but maybe I'm missing out (or they really ARE secret. Oooooooh!).

    IMO, the main thing to be concsious of is the dispute around three of the nine lineages which Hatsumi is soke of and are specifically entitled "ninjutsu" but have gone by other labels. To date, there has not been a public verification of these lineages by independent sources. There are many historians within the Buj who have seen the scrolls when Hatsumi airs them out annually. The other ryu are well documented and acknowledged traditions, which is where a vast majority of the technique comes from. Some of these traditions supposedly passed through the hands of historical figures famously known as ninja. There is a mutually accepted rift between Hatsumi and the general koryu community in Japan. I read an interesting message on the subject authored by, I believe, Dr. Karl Friday. I'll throw up a link here when I find it.
  4. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 12:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If she does Bujinkan she should be cautious.

    Make sure the Bujinkan dojo has:

    1. Focus on fitness and conditioining like lots of pad-work.
    2. They do lots of sparring.

    Those are the traits of a good martial arts school. Unfortunatley, most dojo's in the Bujinkan do not do these. Muxh like AIkido and Kung Fu.That is the biggest problem with Bujinkan. Sadly, it is true.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  5. Poop Loops is offline
    Poop Loops's Avatar

    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 4:19am

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  6. meng_mao is offline
    meng_mao's Avatar

    software engineer

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 11:41am

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I see less need for conditioning and sparring if the main purpose is just to learn the techniques of an ancient art, as long as they are taught in the correct context.
  7. PO9 is offline

    10th level Superlesson Grandmaster

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 11:48am


     Style: Currently Inactive

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    I see less need for conditioning and sparring if the main purpose is just to learn the techniques of an ancient art, as long as they are taught in the correct context.

    Thne she can just read a fucking book on it.
    Who, for Pete’s sake! Is opposing science? In fact, we want MORE science by CRITICALLY ANALIZING the evidence-Connie Morris, Kansas State BOE (bolding and underlining part of original quote, red is my emphasis)


    As long as you try to treat your subjective experiences as if they were objective experiences, you will continue to be confounded by people who disagree with you.-some guy on an internet messageboard
  8. Sun Wukong is offline
    Sun Wukong's Avatar

    ˇViva los Muertos!

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 1:26pm


     Style: Boxing/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal
    If she does Bujinkan she should be cautious.

    Make sure the Bujinkan dojo has:

    1. Focus on fitness and conditioining like lots of pad-work.
    2. They do lots of sparring.

    Those are the traits of a good martial arts school. Unfortunatley, most dojo's in the Bujinkan do not do these. Muxh like AIkido and Kung Fu.That is the biggest problem with Bujinkan. Sadly, it is true.
    2400 posts and this is what you come up with... damn.

    Just curious, did hannibal ever have his throwdown/ meet and greet with those other guys from austrailia?
    A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth has time to get it's pants on. - Winston Churchhill
  9. Poop Loops is offline
    Poop Loops's Avatar

    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2005 6:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    I see less need for conditioning and sparring if the main purpose is just to learn the techniques of an ancient art, as long as they are taught in the correct context.
    Then she wouldn't be in the Bujinkan. Most of it is Samurai arts and all of it is totally twisted and perverted. Reading a book would be much faster and more accurate.
  10. meng_mao is offline
    meng_mao's Avatar

    software engineer

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2005 5:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PO9
    Thne she can just read a fucking book on it.
    Don't see me disagreeing.
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