Why Karate Sucks Now

**Cormoran** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 8:59am

great posts, EternalRage has pretty much summed up my questions so far.

Originally Posted by TekkaMaki

The hard, rigid 'blocks' of Karate should not be used to intercept punches or kicks.
The blocking motions of karate, as they are practiced, are not to be used against punches. When karate do was developed, it was developed as a fighting art in a time when it was much more common for someone to grab you than to punch you. In feudal and post-feudal japan, the nobility practiced jujutsu and karate do was developed as a way to protect against trouble-causing warriors.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'intercept'. The blocks i've been taught in karate 'deflect' rather than 'intercept', i've found the difference between the two is usually a very sore multicoloured forearm.

**TekkaMaki** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 10:15am

Rage, I agree with your idea about the possiblity that it may have been "the best way to punch at the time" and "nobody had the gall to reevaluate it" and that in itself is what keeps us from progressing and moving forward with our MA.

After all, up until the 1800s the idea of throwing a jab or a left hook was completey unconceived.

Harry, send me a PM and let me know where and when your class is, if it's all right with your instructor I'd like to come down and learn more about enshin. It sounds really cool! Also, I don't have a space for a throwdown, we could possibly use the wrestling room at SBU just to work a few things, like I said, discuss and demonstrate. Of course if anyone else is interested we can make it... throwdown-esque?

**TekkaMaki** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 10:17am

Originally Posted by Cormoran

great posts, EternalRage has pretty much summed up my questions so far.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'intercept'. The blocks i've been taught in karate 'deflect' rather than 'intercept', i've found the difference between the two is usually a very sore multicoloured forearm.

I suppose 'deflect' may be a better term, but any motion which interrupts another motion has 'intercepted' it.

**Odacon** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 11:45am

You've highlighted the main problems in Karate, lack of proper sparring and resitance and alive training, but you can't go into specifics as every Karate dojo trains differently.

**DuckofDeath** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 1:34pm

Excellent thread! Here's my two cents worth...

Many years ago, I did some training in Shotokan karate. We were taught chambered punches and all those blocks using the forearm. Sparring was the pull your punch variety, and we were expected to use the chambered punches and forearm blocks and whatnot we had practiced in class.

A couple of things stand out in retrospect. On one occasion, the instructor told us that a side benefit of a vigorous re-chambering of a thrown punch was that if the opponent managed to grab the sleeve of your gi, you could actually pull him forward off balance and into another punch thrown with your other arm.

On another occasion, he told us not just to deflect a punch with a forearm block, but to clobber the opponent's arm with the block hard enough that he would be skittish of throwing punches. (It was kind of strange--you had to pull your punches, but not your blocks.) Anyway, it seems now that those hard blocks might work better against someone who has grabbed your lapel than someone who has thrown a punch.

So it seems then that a lot of what is shown in karate kata might have been anti-jujutsu stuff designed to get someone's grip off the sleeve or lapel of your kimono.

**gcarson** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 1:56pm

Howdy,

In the full contact style I practice (Byakuren) we only do static 'chamber' punches as part of a warm up, same as full-stretch-type kicks. Its useful to help get your head in gear as well as your body (make sure your wrists are aligned etcetc) but no, there is no real fight application. It is a good junior starter though, as newbies generally need to practice getting their shoulders/body behind a punch, and not just the arm. We are also in a fully upright position for this, not out in a wide, static kamae (which we don't have any of anyhow).

As to kata, we have 5 short ones, and thats all. They are called Jissen Kata, or real fight katas because everything in them IS used in sparring and fighting. Obviously not in order (duh) but there are no 'forms' for the sake of tradition or practice.

This lack of 'wasted' practice time is why I got into it to start with. Full contact with everything focused on applicability.

Good thread, but a whole lot of people don't differentiate between full contact styles (Byakuren, Enshin, Seido, Shido, Kyokushin etc) and the other 'traditional' styles.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 11:35pm

Originally Posted by TekkaMaki

In feudal and post-feudal japan, the nobility practiced jujutsu and karate do was developed as a way to protect against trouble-causing warriors.

Too tired to comment on the rest...just go read Abernethy and avoid Dillman.

One glaring thing...

KARATE WAS NOT PRACTICED IN FEUDAL OR POST-FEUDAL JAPAN AGAINST TROUBLE CAUSING WARRIORS.

**Hannibal** · Posted On: 12/26/2005 12:07am

I just wish to add my opinions on karate.

1.The karate schools which are **** are usually the ones which engage in point sparring or no sparring at all. Your hard contact styles produce awsome fighters.

2. The purpose of kata is not really to teach someone how to fight . It re-enforces the basics. It makes use of exaggerated stances to generate powerful body movement. Like as you go in to a forward leaning stance, you use the momentum by driving off your back leg, twisting your hip to put power behind your punch. But kata on it's own is one hell of a workout. People who think kata alone produces fighters ARE fuckwits no doubt. They have never been in a real fight.

3. DOn't asume Kyokushin or Enshin karate are the only decent styles of karate out there. It all depends on the individual club and how the instructors train their students.

In Nationals tournaments we get people from other styles of karate like Goju Ryu and Shotokan. I've seen people from those styles fight in full contact karate tournaments. Some of them do quite well and I've seen them put our blackbelts to shame. And the guys I train with go to Japan to fight in in the Open Weight Kyokushin World Title. They are not softcocks by anymeans.

That is all.

**Odacon** · Posted On: 12/26/2005 11:52am

Originally Posted by Hannibal

That is all.

It should be, but it won't.

**seeker of truth** · Posted On: 12/26/2005 12:44pm

There is a theory that most ofthe karate taught in Japan (at first), in okinawan public/high schools and to westerners was watered down and was sort to be taught like kickboxing aerobics with basic self defense. I don't know if I agree with that theory though 'cause I'm sure Oyama could have killed any of "teh r33l" masters.

Relistically the things that need to be done (at least in my opinion) are as follows:
-Make a movie about real full contact karate, real training and get the movie into the mainstream. This is to reverse the damage karate kid did.
-Make an organization, with all the real proven masters (Fumio Demura, Morio Higoanna, Jon Bluming etc.) and have the organization go to as many schools as possible.
-Have them label schools "approved" if they agree with the dojo's teaching.
-Establish more full contact tournaments and have them occur very frequently.

Not all of you guys may agree with that but in my mind it makes the most sense.

I was in Jundokan Goju ryu for a year and a few months, and in shotokan for 3. I'm going to attend a new goju dojo very soon, when I get enough free time.