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  1. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2005 7:56pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar, I understand your point.

    But letīs look a t it this way.

    May sound silly, but Iīve found that, after a few weeks of training i used to do certain movememnts just before perfoming a kick (like, the sidestpe or switching the rear and leading leg). So, when I was to throw a kick, I wasnīt able to do so correctly if I didnīt perform those movements.

    I now try not to perform too many movmements from the time I think "Iīll kick now" to the actual throwing of the kick.
  2. j416to is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2005 11:50pm

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     Style: Muay Thai, Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Geeze Omar, do you really walk like that? That's a pretty pompous swagger, even for a guy who's walking towards the bathroom, first thing in the morning, about to take a dump.

    Okay, okay, assuming you're serious, and since you introduced this clip with the statement " What's wrong with this kick?" I'll give you my analysis, not that you really care to hear anyone else's opinion but your own.

    That step outward with your back foot takes you off the centerline, that allows you to use the next move to step your front foot outwards, effectively rotating your body without having to actually step to the left, thus when your kick makes contact with your opponent, it hits with maximum leverage.

    This kick of yours is definitely better than simply stepping to your left with your front foot, a move that would allow a person to twist their foot outwards then they landed their step, but would also put them in a less than optimal position for kicking leverage.

    But a Muay Thai round house kick where you simply stepped forward and pivoted up onto the balls of your feet, would achieve the same kicking leverage as your kick, but without that back foot step.

    I'm sure your kick would be very useful in a more freeform fight, where you're walking aroung, but in a ring, where you're going toe-to-toe with a more advanced kickboxing opponent, I would think that they'd simply tag you, and tag you hard, every time your back foot stepped out. And you've have no way to recover, since you have to make that second step, your front foot step, before you can strike.

    Like I said, that's my analysis, but I'm sure you don't really care to hear anyone else's opinion but your own. So, good luck to you.
  3. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 2:13am

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [edit....I'm an idiot. I missed the joke. Response to perceived insult deleted. ]

    That step outward with your back foot takes you off the centerline....

    Yeah. You got all that right. But now back it up a bit and let me suggest another modification that you can do mid-stream. In the clip I'm going step-step-kick. What if I paired a jab with the first step and then instead of a second step I just kicked directly. That was probably one of the most common things I ever did in a Muay Thai context. Jab-->lead round. The jab hides the step and the step sets up the round.

    But a Muay Thai round house kick where you simply stepped forward and pivoted up onto the balls of your feet, would achieve the same kicking leverage as your kick, but without that back foot step.


    I'm looking at how the kick flows of the context of natural footwork as opposed to just taking a stance and kicking from there. I could just kick directly, but I've almost never landed anything that way.


    I'm sure your kick would be very useful in a more freeform fight, where you're walking aroung, but in a ring, where you're going toe-to-toe with a more advanced kickboxing opponent....[snip]


    So in the ring you advocate going "toe-to-toe" with you opponent and prefer not to move around? I have better luck when I keep mobile. I've never had the reaction speed for toe to toe face offs.

    Just sayin...
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lights' out,

    I agree completely. That's why I don't generally do straight kicking drills anymore and prefer to work more purely on footwork and experimenting with how and when I can get kicks or knees off from odd or unexpected or generally unpatterned angles and bits of timing.

    I repeated the same kick several times not as an example of my training as I never train that way. I did it because I wanted to highlight the footwork during the kick and was being carefull to make sure that I was facing the camera and that my feet were center frame each time. I had to re-shoot it a couple times because the guy holding the camera kept trying to get my whole body in, expecially the top of the arc of the kick at the expense of my foot placement at the bottom ot the frame. I wanted to try to kick high without lifting my heel off the ground or pivoting. I didn't succed completely. If you go through it slow-mo you can still see my heel coming up a little bit for a slight pivot. Not much but it's there.

    I now try not to perform too many movmements from the time I think "Iīll kick now" to the actual throwing of the kick.
    In the clip, every step is a kick. And the kick is just another step. It's a different paradigm.
    Last edited by Omar; 12/30/2005 2:45am at .
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  4. alex is offline
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 5:43am

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     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    OTOH, have you ever spent any time tring to figure out what happens when you kick air? I don't mean to advocate kicking air over pads or a heavy bag but what happens when you miss? Not blocked but just completely missed because the persons scoots back out of range?

    Have you abandoned kicking air altogether?
    a drill that we do is one where you throw a kick high, and the person holding the pad will sway backwards out of the way. after a bit the person with the pads will either sway back out of the way or keep the pads there, so every time you throw the kick you dont know whether they will move or not. great way to get used to an unexpected miss (dont do this with rank beginners though unless you want broken asses)

    as for the vid i really dont get why you are stepping out with your back leg like that. im assuming this isnt a thai style kick (since it looks nothing like one)

    if i was going to criticise it from a MT perspective- its way too telegraphed obviously but i think you already know that. im not sure what kind of footwork you are trying to demonstrate. your leg arcs way too much. a muay thai kick does not come across in a huge swinging arc like that- it goes straight up and turns right at the end. this is from the bible of Samkor, and whatever Samkor does when he kicks is true and correct. even for a kick chopping downwards onto the neck- it goes straight up, turns, down.
  5. j416to is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 9:39am

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     Style: Muay Thai, Kenjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    ....... But now back it up a bit and let me suggest another modification that you can do mid-stream. In the clip I'm going step-step-kick. What if I paired a jab with the first step and then instead of a second step I just kicked directly. That was probably one of the most common things I ever did in a Muay Thai context. Jab-->lead round. The jab hides the step and the step sets up the round. .....

    Okay, then this goes back to my original question. If you're going to throw a jab with the first step of this footwork, does that mean that you're already close enough to hit and kick your opponent? So you're already toe-to-toe? Or does this 1st step close the distance? I was asking because I don't see how this 1st step, the stepping of your back foot, could bring your front jab any closer? Maybe I'm wrong, but that's why I asked what you were trying to accomplish with the stepping of your back foot. It wasn't a criticism, it was a sincere question.

    I can see how the stepping of your back foot sets up the location of your front foot step. I can see how that footwork would maximize your kicking power. I was just wondering if there was anything more, something more subtle, about this circling. Circling seems to be a common thread between a lot of traditional martial arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    .....
    So in the ring you advocate going "toe-to-toe" with you opponent and prefer not to move around? I have better luck when I keep mobile. I've never had the reaction speed for toe to toe face offs. ....
    Yes, I definitely see the value of this kick, in a freeform fight, no question about that. The reason I mentioned toe-to-toe is because in a ring fight, what has been drummed into me, over and over, is that you'll always end up against the ropes. You have to be prepared to fight toe-to-toe, to get yourself off the ropes, or out of a corner.


    Oh, and last night at the gym, I tried out your kick. It was pretty foreign to me. I really had a hard time adjusting to the shifting of weight that goes with your footwork. I sucked at it, big time.
  6. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 10:36am

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol. awsome.

    I'm totally impressed you actually tried it out. The closest thing in Muay Thai would be one of those "rainbow kicks" where you are striking on the downward arc of what I showed. Swing the leg up like head kick high but still end up hitting the back much lower.

    If you're going to throw a jab with the first step of this footwork, does that mean that you're already close enough to hit and kick your opponent?

    Yes. . . although you do get a little extra reach on the jab from that first step. It brings you forward at a 45 degree angle.

    So you're already toe-to-toe? Or does this 1st step close the distance?

    Already in range to hit but not as tight as you talk about later in your post like when you get boxed in on the ropes. Just close enough to land the jab.

    ...I don't see how this 1st step, the stepping of your back foot, could bring your front jab any closer?

    Much less about the jab than it is about the left leg round kick that follows. My coach never advocated a switch step. He felt it telegraped to much so I learned to step forward and to the side like that with a jab and then sneak in the lead leg round under it as a follow up. You can connect them, jab-kick, really fast that way.

    I was just wondering if there was anything more, something more subtle, about this circling. Circling seems to be a common thread between a lot of traditional martial arts.

    There is but it's off topic. I started a whole new thread on that in strikestan. I'm kind of talking about the issue from two opposite sides on these two threads. On this one, I took an unorthodox kick and am asking people to see why it is the way it is which leads back to that wierd ass footwork. On the other thread I posted some footwork with no kick and asked what it had to do with kicking. The threads have now finnaly converged except I am trying to stick more to the kicking part on this one since the thread is officially called "The Muay Thai Roundhouse" but the other one is my own thread so I am letting it drift into Bagua and CMA in general.

    The reason I mentioned toe-to-toe is because in a ring fight, what has been drummed into me, over and over, is that you'll always end up against the ropes. You have to be prepared to fight toe-to-toe, to get yourself off the ropes, or out of a corner.
    I got two thoughts on that. The first is that I agree and perhaps my favorite times I ever had in the Muay Thai rind was when I was literally bouncing off the ropes as I shelled up and applied that wonderfully systematic Muay Thai defense. I'll be starting a new thread with some clips of how I like to work on that these days but that's another topic.

    The second thought is that the kind of footwork and habitual roaming is exactly what keeps you out of the corner. Part of the whole thing of this kind of walking like I like is to keep you kicking and punching "on the fly".

    Side note: You ever take advantage of the bounce back the ropes give you to get off of them? Like you shell up and take a couple solid hits that drive you back into the ropes and when the ropes give you that little push back..it's just a little ...you can kind of bounce back and take and extra step and your back in the middle of the ring again?
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

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    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 11:51am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar, my post was made before reading the other thread. After reading it, I understood better your point. I think I know now where you wanted to get with that back step.
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