[so-called "anti-grappling"] Why are people so gullible?

[wagamichi]

Weapons range?!? Bullshit.

That whole "Range of fighting" thing just goes out the window when things get going. There's just the fight. Whatever apprpriate technique at whatever appropriate time. You can strike at grappling range. Hell, weapons at grappling range are a great way to break out of a tight spot. Put a knife in between someone's ribs while they've got you in guard.

Some techniques might not work at some distances. We discussed the "kimuras at 20 paces" at the last MD throwdown, but there is no kicking range, punching range, whatever...

And there sure as hell is no weapons range...

Unless you meant the firing range...

I thought every serious fighter carried a gun? I do. I have even used it. Sure some techniques work in other stages, hard to throw a round kick in the gaurd. the ranges are for cataloging techniques into a sylabus. once done, you can see where your holes are.

[CMack11]

I thought every serious fighter carried a gun? I do. I have even used it.

Used it how? Actually shot somebody?

[JohnnyCache]

WTF! There are five ranges of fighting. Weapons, Kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling.

A good MMA fighter is good at the latter four. The TMA may have the weapons as well.

I like the schools/styles that say, "we strike the eyes with our fingers of death. that is why we cant fight UFC. The rules would put us at a dissadvantage." What ever. If you cant hit the basterd with a punch, what makes anyone belive you could hit him with a "dagger-finger"

If you want to be a good figher! you need to be good at all the ranges. You will probably be better at one range, but you need to train them all and have skills.

The BJJ guys want to say that they have invented the worlds most effective martial art. Well geuss what, people have been fighting a long time! The warriors of the past fought standing up! Never did two armies meet on the feild to Grapple to death!- They used the weapons range! then they kicked, then they punched, then if that did not work they met the ground.

As the arts go forward, and people "fight" less to the death! The arts are becoming more and more watered down. Thats just the facts of it. Ground fighting works now. so does hitting a mofo really hard! it's all good.

People need to quit fighting about what is best, and just train it all!

This is a hannibal post. Hanibal, quit making alts.

[DerAuslander]

I thought every serious fighter carried a gun? I do. I have even used it. Sure some techniques work in other stages, hard to throw a round kick in the gaurd. the ranges are for cataloging techniques into a sylabus. once done, you can see where your holes are.

OK, what the **** are you doing talking about shooting people?

Oh, and tell me, where is weapons range?

My point is, that's a really crappy way to create a syllabus. It may be hard to throw a round kick in the guard, but you can still punch, so aren't you still in striking range? What about elbows? Does a crossface count as a grappling manuever or a strike? Which range is that technique? What range does your gun fall under?

[G.R. Bug]

As for those so called striking systems that don't hit for real ... wtf is that all about? I like sky diving ... I'm not paying to sit in a plane on the runway and then climb down the stairs wearing my parachute ... going "Weeeee ... damn ... this is some awesome air time ..."

JFS, I'd bet that you have never been a wimpy, go-along-to-get-along kind of guy. I have.

Also, it sounds like all your martial arts training has been of the full-contact, let's-see-what-really-works variety. You are fortunate. (And that's one reason Bullshido is fortunate to have you here).

Here's my answer to your question -- For a wimp, the notion that you can develop deadly fighting skills without risking getting hit hard can be very appealing. It certainly was for me.

But it's disheartening to realize, eventually, that semi-contact training in karate (or whatever style) is not a "magic bullet" that trumps things like size, strength, ruthlessness and ferocity. Not to mention full-contact experience. Or grappling know-how.

I think anti-grappling appeals to no-contact and semi-contact strikers in part because grapplers remind us of the high school wrestlers and other jocks we envied and feared in our younger days. So Semi-Kontact Kuhrottyman thinks, deep down, "Do I want to grapple? Hell no, those guys would eat me alive!" The result? "Gimme another magic bullet, sensei! Bring on the ANTI-GRAPPLE!"

There, how's that for an answer?

[wagamichi]

Used it how? Actually shot somebody?

No, had a run once on a burglary in progress. as i went to the back of the apartment, I saw a 18 year old kid prying off a window screen. In his hadn was the lead to a pitbull. The gang members in Indy use them as weapons for gaurding drugs and to get away once they are chased.

A foot pursuit ensued. After a run through the project, slush, and snow. i came around the corner just in time to see him unleash the now freaking out dog, and sic him ym way. I now was faced with his active weapon. i shot the dog twice as it ran at me. the dog hit in the head and shoulder, turned and ran between two houses. I then re-engaged the foot chase, caught the the suspect another apartment over and had to fight with him now. punch, sweep, cuff. That fight started at weapons range, went to punching range, then to the ground.

Keep this in mind. You fight for fun and i fight at work. No ref, no belt title. sure i have tools to help. But it still comes down to hands on. Lose one of those fights and you can end up on the "wall of heros" or some ****.

Just because you do not deal with weapons range in how you fight. does not mean it does not happen.

[CMack11]

I wasn't trying to be a dick. Just curious about when you actually used a gun in a fight. It makes more sense now that I see your profile and the fact that you're a cop.

[wagamichi]

I wasn't trying to be a dick. Just curious about when you actually used a gun in a fight. It makes more sense now that I see your profile and the fact that you're a cop.

No worries! Statisticaly, the most dangerous situations that result in the death of police officers follow the following chain of events. Pursuit-car, pursuit-foot. catch-fight standing, fight ground, presentation of weapon, the inability of the officer to respond. This is not allways the progression. But is a majority of officers killed.

Knowing and being skilled in the "5" ranges of combat and having an answer for different threats is a must in my work. As pointed out by the "recreational" fighers, the 5 ranges will flow or skip. but they are still there.

[dramaboy]

To begin with, I have no idea who the Hell it is that the grappler is closing with as the typically depicted striker must be wearing concrete shoes or something. People that I know who are skilled strikers generally have reasonably fluid - mobile footwork. You go to a decent boxing gym and square off with one of their better club fighters and see how much leather you eat before you get to any thing like a clinch. Then ... don't be shocked when the guy hooks the back of your neck and spins you.

An idea for a drill at the next throwdown:
one fighter is attempting a takedown and the other is defending with standup techs only.
I've done this drill many times and I feel that it is easier for the grappler to keep the clinch and get the takedown than for the striker to avoid the clinch/takedown.
However, a striker with some grappling training has MUCH better chances of sustaining his range, just by anticipating the grappling moves


We can try this at different intensities etc.
(not that this will solve the dispute, but I think it is a nice drill).

As an Old Man it would be a genuine Blessing to see it for one time ... just one generation ... MA peeps of all types "getting it" ... it is all about the "individual" and not the bowing down to dogma ... however badged. Respect and honor your Coach - Teacher - Sifu, etc., but accept that ulitmately the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the individual.

Dogma is easier. You can become skilled by proxy.:)

I'm outa here, have a good holiday you all..

Tomas

[JFS USA]

JFS, I'd bet that you have never been a wimpy, go-along-to-get-along kind of guy. I have.

Also, it sounds like all your martial arts training has been of the full-contact, let's-see-what-really-works variety. You are fortunate. (And that's one reason Bullshido is fortunate to have you here).

Here's my answer to your question -- For a wimp, the notion that you can develop deadly fighting skills without risking getting hit hard can be very appealing. It certainly was for me.

But it's disheartening to realize, eventually, that semi-contact training in karate (or whatever style) is not a "magic bullet" that trumps things like size, strength, ruthlessness and ferocity. Not to mention full-contact experience. Or grappling know-how.

I think anti-grappling appeals to no-contact and semi-contact strikers in part because grapplers remind us of the high school wrestlers and other jocks we envied and feared in our younger days. So Semi-Kontact Kuhrottyman thinks, deep down, "Do I want to grapple? Hell no, those guys would eat me alive!" The result? "Gimme another magic bullet, sensei! Bring on the ANTI-GRAPPLE!"

There, how's that for an answer?

An interesting post ... I admire your candor and I respect your willingness to step forward as a Human Being ... warts and all ... just like all of us.

I just can't get my hands around "anti" grappling. When I first heard the term I laughed ... came off like anti-matter ... oh, okay Mr. Spock, engage warp drive ... what a crock of ****.

You know those High School Jocks you mentioned ... guess what? They are Adults now ... probably have families ... might have lost a Child, gone through a Divorce, suffered a serious down turn in health, fallen into alcoholism, drug addiction ... the myriad ills that torment and define the Human Condition.

"They" aren't your enemy any longer. If anything, you might find that life has created much common ground. Why "anti" anything? It's such a perverse notion to begin with and really smacks of comic book super hero drama.

I'm not "anti" much of anything. Why reject something, or attempt to render it null & void, when I can actually learn something. As I previously posted ... learning is mostly fun ... I like fun.