[so-called "anti-grappling"] Why are people so gullible?

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 9:43am

Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

Um, Anti-Grappling is still Grappling. Its just with a focus of getting back to striking.

It still has Grappling in the name doesn't it? It should really be written (anti) Grappling.

Why not just leave off the misleading prefix?

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 9:53am

Originally Posted by JFS USA

Except for the simple fact that in a fight the majority ... the wiinners ... aren't focused on "defending" against much of anything ... their sole drive is on inflicting as much damage as possible.

Except for the simple fact you don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about ... but you sure like to talk a lot.

Fights aren't won by "defending" the foe into submission ... they are won by damaging him/them to the point where they are no longer capable of, or willing, to continue. The dominance of "attack" plays true even within the realm of modern warfare ... try thinking outside your comfortable little box once in a while.

If I defend a punch from in my guard by armbarring the attacker, then that's causing enough damage to end the fight. It sounds like you're the one living in your comfortable box, since you're only posting to convince yourself of your own points.

Oh and as for relating what ever it is you're ranting about to modern warfare, well, have fun invading Russia in the winter.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 12:18pm

A striker who understands how to grapple and deal with grapplers can win fights.

A grappler who understands how to strike and deal with strikers can win fights.

But either of them is completely lacking in the other side of the equation, they could very well get their asses handed to them. Grappler or striker.

**JFS USA** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:19pm

Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?

Stick to MA JFS, your evolutionary-science-fu is weaker than a 13-year-old at a McDojo.

Yeah, pity that Princeton University didn't have an Anthro. Dept. that met your standards ... STFU asshole.

You want to "worship" the god of science ... have at it. Maybe even consider pulling your head out of your self-aggrandizing asshole and take a look at the results of surveys taken of "Men of Science" with regard to belief in a Divine Creator of the Universe. Other than that, feel free to eat **** and die.

Now if you will excuse me I feel like Praying to God ... you go **** a monkey in the ass as it might be becoming the next hot as Hell Diva ...

**JFS USA** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:22pm

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

If I defend a punch from in my guard by armbarring the attacker, then that's causing enough damage to end the fight.

Could well be the case. Have you tried under real or near real conditions?

It sounds like you're the one living in your comfortable box, since you're only posting to convince yourself of your own points.

You are clueless. Do a bit of research before you run your fucking mouth to me asswipe.

Oh and as for relating what ever it is you're ranting about to modern warfare, well, have fun invading Russia in the winter.

Why bother? They collapsed under the weight of their own Government. Someone choke you out for the last decade plus or what?

**JFS USA** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:27pm

Originally Posted by Ryno

A striker who understands how to grapple and deal with grapplers can win fights.

A grappler who understands how to strike and deal with strikers can win fights.

But either of them is completely lacking in the other side of the equation, they could very well get their asses handed to them. Grappler or striker.

Right on point, Dude. It is a matter of being familiar with the other side of the house and the only solid way to get to know them is to go to them.

For all the huff & puff bullshit I've never encountered anyone of another discipline that if approached in a decent manner wasn't willing, often times delighted, to take the time to provide me with some measure of experience in what they did.

I've never turned anyone away or refused to work with someone because they were one of "those" guys. Why would I? It's all about learning and learning is pretty much fun ... I like fun.

Great way to get to know other people walking a different Path and variety is what keeps life interesting.

**JFS USA** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:32pm

Originally Posted by G.R. Bug

Hmm, I probably should have said that my comments were meant to represent the thoughts of people who practice striking styles in a no-contact or semi-contact format.

Dude, you are cool with me ... I was just fucking around and tossed out some gasoline to see if any fires were smoldering. Nothing personal.

As for those so called striking systems that don't hit for real ... wtf is that all about? I like sky diving ... I'm not paying to sit in a plane on the runway and then climb down the stairs wearing my parachute ... going "Weeeee ... damn ... this is some awesome air time ..."

**wagamichi** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:44pm

WTF! There are five ranges of fighting. Weapons, Kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling.

A good MMA fighter is good at the latter four. The TMA may have the weapons as well.

I like the schools/styles that say, "we strike the eyes with our fingers of death. that is why we cant fight UFC. The rules would put us at a dissadvantage." What ever. If you cant hit the basterd with a punch, what makes anyone belive you could hit him with a "dagger-finger"

If you want to be a good figher! you need to be good at all the ranges. You will probably be better at one range, but you need to train them all and have skills.

The BJJ guys want to say that they have invented the worlds most effective martial art. Well geuss what, people have been fighting a long time! The warriors of the past fought standing up! Never did two armies meet on the feild to Grapple to death!- They used the weapons range! then they kicked, then they punched, then if that did not work they met the ground.

As the arts go forward, and people "fight" less to the death! The arts are becoming more and more watered down. Thats just the facts of it. Ground fighting works now. so does hitting a mofo really hard! it's all good.

People need to quit fighting about what is best, and just train it all!

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:54pm

Originally Posted by wagamichi

WTF! There are five ranges of fighting. Weapons, Kicking, punching, trapping, and grappling.

A good MMA fighter is good at the latter four. The TMA may have the weapons as well.

I like the schools/styles that say, "we strike the eyes with our fingers of death. that is why we cant fight UFC. The rules would put us at a dissadvantage." What ever. If you cant hit the basterd with a punch, what makes anyone belive you could hit him with a "dagger-finger"

If you want to be a good figher! you need to be good at all the ranges. You will probably be better at one range, but you need to train them all and have skills.

The BJJ guys want to say that they have invented the worlds most effective martial art. Well geuss what, people have been fighting a long time! The warriors of the past fought standing up! Never did two armies meet on the feild to Grapple to death!- They used the weapons range! then they kicked, then they punched, then if that did not work they met the ground.

As the arts go forward, and people "fight" less to the death! The arts are becoming more and more watered down. Thats just the facts of it. Ground fighting works now. so does hitting a mofo really hard! it's all good.

People need to quit fighting about what is best, and just train it all!

Weapons range?!? Bullshit.

That whole "Range of fighting" thing just goes out the window when things get going. There's just the fight. Whatever apprpriate technique at whatever appropriate time. You can strike at grappling range. Hell, weapons at grappling range are a great way to break out of a tight spot. Put a knife in between someone's ribs while they've got you in guard.

Some techniques might not work at some distances. We discussed the "kimuras at 20 paces" at the last MD throwdown, but there is no kicking range, punching range, whatever...

And there sure as hell is no weapons range...

Unless you meant the firing range...

**JFS USA** · Posted On: 12/23/2005 3:58pm

Originally Posted by BenwaMandelbrot

See, this I don't buy. Grappling can go a long way to negating functional strength and, once you've closed with someone, you've taken the power from the punches of almost everyone.

I'm not suggesting that grappling alone prepares someone for a streetfight - that would be silly. But If a person has grappling and some experience at throwing and taking punches then why is it wrong to suggest that the equation will typically be in favor of the grappler? Most strikers aren't going to deliver a knock out blow in the time it takes to close distance. Once distance has been closed and assuming the grappler has some idea of how to handle punches on the ground, it seems like a serious problem for someone who only trains in how to strike.

Okay ... first of all ... I was just fucking around. Need to have an "I'm Just Fucking Around" icon ... I guess ...

Let's take a look at this as you ask a serious question that is frequently raised as the "typical scenario" ... striker punches ... grappler eats the shot in whatever measure ... closes and goes into his game where the striker does the fish out of water bit.

To begin with, I have no idea who the Hell it is that the grappler is closing with as the typically depicted striker must be wearing concrete shoes or something. People that I know who are skilled strikers generally have reasonably fluid - mobile footwork. You go to a decent boxing gym and square off with one of their better club fighters and see how much leather you eat before you get to any thing like a clinch. Then ... don't be shocked when the guy hooks the back of your neck and spins you.

The whole scenario is just hokey as **** ... there are too many unknown variables that are slanted in favor of whichever side of the house is making the bullshit claim of superiority of approach.

I'm not interested in or receptive to some piss ant ratty tat-tat "striker" going on about how he would inflict so much damage on a grappler that by the time ... I call bullshit on such peeps all the time. It's just flat out crap. I've encountered some grapplers who have an incredibly explosive entry and make body to body contact under excellent balance and control ... then they really unwind into their game.

I'm also not receptive to or interested in some grappler going on about how he can "take it" and close on me. I'll fucking hurt you bad ... then I'll do some very nasty things to you that will leave you with lifetime reminders of why you shouldn't mess with dangerous things.

What I would personally like to see ... since I just know how "concerned" you all are about what I want ... is for the current BJJ - Submission - Grappling influence to serve as a catalyst for real change. Change outside the "my style - approach" crap that ultimately bogs down and drowns in its own hubris.

I've seen this cycle come and go a few times now ... it would be really nice if this time things turned out different. It would be great if this time ... we came together in an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding to learn from one another ... to become more than what is taught within the confines of any given School - Club - Kwoon - Dojo - whatever.

As an Old Man it would be a genuine Blessing to see it for one time ... just one generation ... MA peeps of all types "getting it" ... it is all about the "individual" and not the bowing down to dogma ... however badged. Respect and honor your Coach - Teacher - Sifu, etc., but accept that ulitmately the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the individual.

You help me ... I help you and along the way we both become better than we could have without each other. Seems reasonable to me ... just never happens.