12/22/2005 6:17pm, #11
Originally Posted by strategist
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
I remember the same discussion a few months back. As JFS said, these are targets of opportunity. further, they can be used in order to set up a finishing technique, but may or maynot end an altercation on the ground. I don't believe if I break someones nose it will end a fight. However, it certainly could give me the second i need to use something else, run away, call for help etc.
Besides, how many people will let someone train these techniuqes on them full strength to become proficent and make them effective? Ignore the argument that training time can be better spent with other techniuqes. That is irrelevant to this discussion.
Few people are going to be willing to risk the injury while you get good. since it is incredibly difficult to practice the tecniques safely against a resisting opponent.
The real anti grapple is having 10 of your friends with you against 1 opponent and no cops to break it up.
12/22/2005 6:24pm, #12Originally Posted by JFS USA
12/22/2005 6:47pm, #13
Originally Posted by JFS USA
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
But arguing loudly that the earth is flat and that there is no dark side of the moon -- in the same page that you argue that you can defeat grappling but that it would be too dangerous to practice -- makes me an instant doubter. Especially when I see all of these people on the forums appearing in Throwdowns and in competitions and such, and that the best of them (like Asia, who looks like a fucking tank) clearly appear to consider grappling critically important, and train in it.
So, it's the word of some of these really talented and intelligent people (and not just a few of them) against you, and even if you are as talented as they are, your loudly declared, flat-earth views in matters of science make it obvious that you aren't similarly talented as a thinker.
Also, come to the Midwest Throwdown and beat me the **** up plz. I am new here, but not new to getting my ass kicked, and I have no doubt that I would learn a ton.
So, hi! I'm unpossible. And you are obviously retarded, but that shouldn't stand between us. Let's be friends.
Back to the question at hand:
I'm a little new here and everything, but it seems like the effective 'outlawed' stuff (headbutting in clinches and eye hooks etc) can all be performed equally well by grapplers and non-grapplers (although headbutting seems like the grapplers would have the advantage), whereas grappling is all about controlling the other person and not allowing them the *opportunity*, the FREEDOM, to hook your eye. So if anything, a grappler is going to have more opportunities to use these tactics, and I must say that if you're clinched, have a free hand and can reach the guy's eye, it seems like you can probably pull it off equally well if you've trained for it or not.
Just trying to raise valid points!
12/22/2005 7:30pm, #14
What the **** is an eye HOOK?More human than human is our motto.
12/22/2005 7:51pm, #15
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
- Seattle (Ballard), WA
Anti-grapple = Sprawl in my book. Maybe include some knees, elbows, headbutts.
Sprawling does work. Just not all of the time. It definitely won't do you much good if you only practice sprawls against a bunch of chumps untrained in takedowns. This is where a lot of places go wrong. To get good at grappling and anti-grappling (sprawling), you need to train with grapplers.
12/22/2005 7:52pm, #16
I'm impartial to how we got here. I'm more interested in exploring being here. As an aside evolution and even astrophysics (ala Stephen Hawking) doesn't say anything about there not being a divine creator. The catholic church itself was quite open to evolution ebing tuaght in the early days and many high ranking clergy supported it - they simply saw it as the tool used to create what is here.
That aside the anti-grapple is just ignorance. People believe what they are told, and if your skinny 12 yr old instructor says you can defeat a grappler with a jab to the head, most people believe him. After all most people don't want to exert effort to learn, and grappling requires more effort than beign a form fairy.
That aside all styles tend to have weaknesses as do all methods of training barring no rules full contact sparring. Since that tends to injure us a lot we have to make do with some rules, and be honest about the weaknesses in our styles and ourselves and try to counter them where we can.
Most of us are not able to admit our own flawas, let alone the flaws in a system that we are learning from. Thats especially true when dealing with faith/belief in a system rather than a rational approach to the system.
To give a classic example, take Kyokushin. Well known as a hard style, churns out lots of tough bastards. Most people are not keen on admitting it has serious weaknesses - it does but they can be countered.
No headshots in sparring with hands - spar with headshots with friends or cross train where headshots are allowed due to gear.
No clinch work - basic techniques are there, train and practice clinch with friends or cross train.
No ground work - work on or train groundwork.
No nutshots - kicking to the inside of the thigh is similar enough in terms of timing, do limited sparring with actual nut shots to confirm targeting. Don't wear a cup to tournaments and you will get hit in the nuts and know how it feels.
No all encompassing fighting - same solutions as the above.
Simple for all styles - be objective, don't have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, look outside if the answers aren't contained within, always question the why and wherefore. The single biggest obstacle in our training is our own minds, both our fear and our preconceptions. Think and practice outside the box.Sociopaths are people too.
12/22/2005 8:35pm, #17
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
Here are some reasons and rationalizations why someone who's practiced a striking style for awhile might prefer "anti-grappling" to grappling. Many of these thoughts passed through my head at some point during my karate training:
* If you have never trained in grappling, you aren't likely to be very good at it initially. After working your way up through the ranks in a striking style, you don't want to be a beginner again.
* If you have never trained in grappling, you have a lot to learn about it. After learning all that striking stuff, you don't want to learn a lot more. It's much easier on your psyche to believe all you need is to learn a few more moves.
* If grappling is effective, and important to know, then does that mean you've wasted time and money learning a striking style?
* Those grapplers are so smug, with their billboard gis and UFC victories and Gracie challenges. You want to wipe their collective smirk right off.
* You have been told by movies, TV, comic books, your grade-school classmates, your dojo classmates and your instructor that striking styles enable you to kick everyone's ass. You don't want to acknowledge that there is a whole segment of society out these who can probably kick YOUR ass, just by virtue of the style they study.
* You have pride in your style and need to "represent" by learning to defeat grapplers, rather than sinking to their level and training in their methods.
* It looks difficult.
* You would feel uncomfortable being in close contact with another male.
* It looks strenuous.
* There's no forms competition.
* It sure looks like being big and strong is an advantage in grappling, and the last thing you want to believe is that size and physical fitness really do have an influence on your chances of defending yourself successfully.
12/22/2005 8:40pm, #18
12/22/2005 9:07pm, #19
Originally Posted by Skepti-Claus
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Baltimore, Maryland Area
Grapplers don't want to admit that striking is King as that would mean they (Grapplers) are at best ... Queen. Grapplers all ready have a Homo hurdle to overcome.
Grapplers don't want to confront the possibility that someone could and would reduce their brains to Jello before they closed. Ground & pound would be translated as Got pounded and ended up grounded ... face down.
Grapplers don't want to think that all that time they spent getting sweaty and tired might avail them naught in the event they ate a serious shot by someone who can hit with real authority. Best they stick to that **** MT and other less than whole body power crap as their "proving" ground.
Grapplers can't admit that "the street" isn't at all like "the gym" as that would mean they are as delusional as the Form Faries & Silk PJ Dancers. Just different, albeit harder working, sides of the same coin. The coin of controlled environment.
Grapplers can only value size and power (funtional strength) up to a certain level. That level ends where they end otherwise they would be forced to admit that the 'roid fueled iron heads found in gyms around the World would most likely own them in a fight.
Grapplers have both a personal and a vested interest in protecting their turf ... the shithole void they filled when the Form Faries were outed as **** blatant. As grappling has been around at least since the time of recorded history the Grapplers are horney as Hell to finally be someone.
There ... now taken in concert with Bug's post ... we have authentic balance.
12/22/2005 9:09pm, #20
Except for the simple fact that in order to defend against grappling, you have to, you know, grapple.
We covered most of this crap 2.5 years ago. There's even an FAQ devoted to it.