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View Poll Results: What ever shall I do?

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  • Judo!

    38 29.01%
  • BJJ!

    62 47.33%
  • **** Off!

    31 23.66%
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  1. The Limey is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 11:50pm


     Style: Ex-TMA/KB Noob/Judo Noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    Not really, if you suck at takedowns...you'll just get dominated anyway. Balance is key, which is why I like neither. No wrestling takedowns=no good to me.

    Also, with my training I went to a Judo club and was taking down and tapping some of the black belts at will, forget the rest of the students. And that was with a year of training...because they lacked wrestling takedowns, and submission expertise, they couldn't compete, which was pathetic, because I'm not that good.
    Wrestlers are fukkin' tough and learn awesome skills. Beating those black belts doesn't really mean they suck or that judo sucks though. I'm sure there are judo schools that focus mostly on throws.....and they probably never learned to defend against wrestling takedowns...maybe that's where you were.

    Maybe you're as strong as a bull and were twice their size and could just out muscle them?

    Maybe they were twelve year old french school girls?

    I don't know, I wasn't there.

    But belts mean jack ****. A belt reflects your skill and experience in your school. Training standards vary so much that a yellow belt in one place could be better than a black belt in another. Is that common in judo? It sure as hell happens all the time in karate and TKD.

    I've fought black belts that I could beat one handed and I've fought yellow belts that scared the **** outta me...it's all relative.
  2. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
    Roidie McDouchebag's Avatar

    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 11:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wrestlers are fukkin' tough and learn awesome skills.
    But...you don't have to be a pure wrestler to learn some wrestling skills.

    Beating those black belts doesn't really mean they suck or that judo sucks though.
    I agree...although, yeah, those black belts did kind of suck, at least had a pretty big gap in their training.

    I'm sure there are judo schools that focus mostly on throws.....and they probably never learned to defend against wrestling takedowns...maybe that's where you were.
    Exactly, which is stupid. A takedown's a takedown, people should learn'em all and defend against'em all if they want to claim to be grapplers.

    Maybe you're as strong as a bull and were twice their size and could just out muscle them?
    Oh, **** no.

    Maybe they were twelve year old french school girls?
    Again, no, they were at least as strong, and in most cases stronger than me.

    I don't know, I wasn't there.
    Which is why I'm enlightening you.

    But belts mean jack ****.
    Agreed.

    A belt reflects your skill and experience in your school.
    Should, but doesn't, hence this site's creation. Those black belts were worse than some of the yellow belts.

    Training standards vary so much that a yellow belt in one place could be better than a black belt in another.
    Yep, but not at the same place.

    Is that common in judo? It sure as hell happens all the time in karate and TKD.
    A little less common in Judo I think, but not rare enough.

    I've fought black belts that I could beat one handed and I've fought yellow belts that scared the **** outta me...it's all relative.
    Agreed.
  3. Hannibal is offline

    Grandmaster Sensei of Village Idiocy

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 3:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kyokushin and Judo.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Given its use in the other grappling arts, BJJ invented the guard.


    Judo does not allow submissions beyond chokes and armlocks and has counter-productive rules like being able to stand out of a triangle choke. Therefore Judo is not complete.

    Please tell me you are joking. You cannot be serious. Your mistaken.

    BJJ invented the guard position ? Do you even know what this is? This position has been part of the Judo ground fighting curriculum for a long time.

    Having an open guard or closed guard with your feet interlocked, even using the half guard. This was not invented by Helio Gracie. WHen my Judo coach began Judo training many years ago these where all positions taught to him when ground fighting was practiced. Now of coarse they never had fancy names like Spider guard, but the body mechancis where taught. The only thing you guys invented was the wearing of patchess on your gi.

    As for your second point. Yes. There are limitations in Judo competitions. No ankle locks and no standing up in guard. Things like that which are not good. But my coach allows them in sparring anyway to keep us sharp. So thats okay with me.
    Hannibal: The sworn enemy of dishonest politicians, source of entertainment on Bullshido and newly appointed Office Linebacker. Terry Tait ain't got **** on me !!!!
  4. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 9:42am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Training standards vary so much that a yellow belt in one place could be better than a black belt in another.

    Yep, but not at the same place
    That depends, meet joe, joe is practicing martial arts in a shitty place, the place he is training in higly values katas and point sparring, he gets a black belt in this place, then the club shuts down and he is forced to look elsewhere for that same martial art that he loves so much, he finds one and joins in, this new place is full of tough guys who constantly spar full contact and compete, joe gets his ass beat by people with an inferior belt but a much higer skill. So it is possible to, in the same place, have diferent skill levels withing the same belts.

    This is a true story btw and NO it is not me

    Judo or Brazilian Jujitsu ?
    Kung Fu
  5. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 10:48am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Guess how much time I spent doing standup work today in a 2.5hr class.
    And in a few months of BJJ, I've done stand-up exactly once. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence. Still, as we've got nothing better to go on, I'll point out that most of the anecdotal evidence I've heard points to most BJJ places spending much less time on stand-up than judo places tend to spend on groundwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Given its use in the other grappling arts, BJJ invented the guard.
    No, it didn't. Don't be daft. Even many of the modern BJJ guard variations can be seen on the old Kosen Judo tapes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Judo does not allow submissions beyond chokes and armlocks and has counter-productive rules like being able to stand out of a triangle choke. Therefore Judo is not complete.
    Most BJJ tournaments have some restrictions on subs such as spine locks as well; that must make BJJ incomplete too. Still, I concede judo is more limited in that department than BJJ.

    It's shameful to see you arguing with Hannibal - Hannibal! - and getting your arse kicked through ignorance.

    Now, I'm going to say my piece on the subject, from my admittedly minimally educated position of a year and change of judo attending a few clubs, a couple of these being mainstays for different portions of each year, and a few months of BJJ with a single club.

    Some judoka gravitate toward a strategy which incorporates a lot of groundfighting; some don't. I can and have consistently tapped a number of heavier and stronger judo blackbelts in ne-waza randori. These guys tend to have specialised more in the throwing arena, their ground tactics are unsophisticated and tend to revolve around the turtle. Such tactics tend to be found in the larger proportion of judoka, and so most clubs will spend most of their groundwork teaching time on attacking the turtle for the benefit of these people.

    I have been consistently completely destroyed on the ground by judoka who consider themselves ne-waza specialists. I'm pretty certain these judoka didn't learn to be ne-waza specialists just through turtle-attacking uchikomi and regular sparring. The way I learned my ne-waza in judo was to pump the specialists for techniques and tricks and to read up on the literature on the subject; I've noticed some very strong competitive ne-waza players, and had some quite decent guard-based ground game instruction from a club that tends to cater to competition players, so I surmise that clubs like that are where most of the strong judo groundfighters come from. Certainly there's no guarantee that a judo black belt means more than a very basic level of competence on the ground, but there's no guarantee they'll be a pushover on the ground either.

    The BJJ teaching of ground technique I've been exposed to tends to be more structured and strategic than I've found in judo. It's the difference between once in a while having someone watching your sparring telling you to get your feet nearer to your arse to bridge (judo), and spending an entire hour on bridging with constant corrections (BJJ). By the same token, what little I've seen of BJJ stand-up seems very simplistic compared to judo.

    Not all judoka suck ass on the ground, though many do. I'm sure not all BJJ guys suck ass at stand-up. Judo does not have an equivalent ground game, but if it were facing anything but BJJ it would in most cases have an adequate one.

    I Choke You: I'm led to believe that American judo in some places seems to have an aesthetic distaste for wrestling takedowns and pick-ups. Maybe that's the case in your area. They're used rather more over here in the UK, and very heavily in Russian judo, I believe. The Japanese are still kicking ass in the Olympics with their fairly traditional and upright style, so I imagine that they learn how to defend against them at the very least.
  6. wakinonioi is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 12:13pm


     Style: Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I Choke You
    But...you don't have to be a pure wrestler to learn some wrestling skills.

    But...will you gain those particular skills to the same degree any other way?
    Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your signatures.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 12:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Guess how much time I spent doing standup work today in a 2.5hr class.
    In my case, zero time. In three months, we have practice takedowns only twice. Ukemi (falling drills) only twice. On the other hand, ground **** is supreme in my school. But standup work, nil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Given its use in the other grappling arts, BJJ invented the guard.
    Uhmmm, just one name: Mataemon Tanabe's Fusen Ryu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnought
    Judo does not allow submissions beyond chokes and armlocks and has counter-productive rules like being able to stand out of a triangle choke. Therefore Judo is not complete.
    Judo doesn't allow them in competitions. In BJJ, there are ankle locks, but if I'm not mistaken, they are not allowed in competitions under certain belts, right?
    That BJJ has superior groundwork on average than Judo is unquestionable, but as mentioned before, it has more to do with the amount of time devoted to groundwork in BJJ, not because of a revolutionary invention done in BJJ. Besides, BJJ practitioners don't have to worry about a referree standing them up because there is no "apparent progress" on the ground as judoka do.




    *************************




    NOW, I have a million dollar question for all of you:
    Quote Originally Posted by I_Choke_You
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Limey
    Look, if all you do is groundwork of course you'll be better on the ground than a guy who does throws and groundwork combined. That's common sense.
    Not really, if you suck at takedowns...you'll just get dominated anyway. Balance is key, which is why I like neither. No wrestling takedowns=no good to me.
    I've asked the question before, and I've been told that a takedown is the same as a throw. Yet, I keep seeing posts that give the impression (at least to me) that a throw is not the same as a takedown.

    Am I interpreting this wrong? If a takedown =/= throw, then what's the difference? If they are different, what should one to do to learn takedowns (other than joining a wrestling club or something)?
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. PEtrainer is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 12:40pm


     Style: wrestling, Bjj, fi ting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been wrestling since I was 11 and I'm 33.

    Take down: Using skills to put your opponent on the ground while maintaing contact with them. Atleast a portion of them stays on the ground at all times

    Throw: Using skill to put an opponent on the ground, and you may break contact with them and they fully leave the ground.

    There is no better way to lean takedowns than freestyle wrestling.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 1:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PEtrainer
    I've been wrestling since I was 11 and I'm 33.

    Take down: Using skills to put your opponent on the ground while maintaing contact with them. Atleast a portion of them stays on the ground at all times

    Throw: Using skill to put an opponent on the ground, and you may break contact with them and they fully leave the ground.

    There is no better way to lean takedowns than freestyle wrestling.
    Thanks for the clarification, dude.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2006 1:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Limey
    But belts mean jack ****. A belt reflects your skill and experience in your school. Training standards vary so much that a yellow belt in one place could be better than a black belt in another. Is that common in judo? It sure as hell happens all the time in karate and TKD.
    Yeah, I was thinking about that. If you're trying to guage competitive ability, judo as a different ranking system - the A-E level system.

    For the US, there requirements are at http://www.usjudo.org/seniors_classification.asp

    One thing to note is that the majority of judo competitions are not going to fall into this ranking system; therefore most judoka aren't going to be ranked by this standard.

    Now, if a white belt were to go to a club and handle a C level competitor, that would be worth noting; or if a BJJ blue belt medalled in a C level tournament. But in general, club randori and local tournaments don't mean much, as far as quality of judo competition is concerned. In my experience, most judoka don't put on their game face for regular practice, nor do the really good players bother with local-level tournaments.

    For myself, I realize there is a huge difference between what I do with my club, and the tournaments we attend, and what Jimmy Pedro, Jason Morris and Brian Olson are doing.

    I'm curious how BJJ tournaments would be ranked, using this system.
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