Judo Or Bjj?

[Roidie McDouchebag]

You wanna rehash "a throw is worth a sub on teh str33t"?

[dakotajudo]

I like how you're concerned about self-defence and then go on to neglect the grappling art with the significant self-defence component.

From my experience, and apparently your own ( http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30216 ), I'd have to argue that judo has the more significant self-defense component.

The stuff you describe in that thread, and more, is what BJJ dropped from judo, in favor of ground submissions.

[Roidie McDouchebag]

I wish Judo included more submissions, had less illegal techniques, and actually allowed for some decent grappling in competitive matches.

[dakotajudo]

I wish Judo included more submissions, had less illegal techniques, and actually allowed for some decent grappling in competitive matches.

I would assume you're talking about competition rules, 'cause "more submissions" kinda contradicts "less illegal techniques" - wristlocks, leg locks and neck cranks are taught commonly enough, but are still not legal in shiai. Probably won't ever be.

That's related to the last bit - judo philosophy is that a good throw represents a more refined skill than a ground submission. So judo competition will always emphasize throwing.

Doesn't bother me that much - when I compete, it's to improve my throwing. If I want to improve my grappling, there's wrestling. I tend to avoid matwork in judo competition for that reason; I don't want to win a judo by out-wrestling a judoka. Makes no sense to me.

The other aspect of judo philosophy that tends to limit matwork, at least in my mind, is judo is still tied to self-defense, and the samurai battlefield ethic, to some extent. That means, you dispatch your opponent quickly. If you throw with authority (ippon), that counts as a victory, in the samurai ethic - a downed opponent, on the battlefield with weapons, is pretty much fucked.

If you do go to the ground, you must establish your dominance quickly. In the samurai ethic, an extended ground battle is not a win for either party.

It also helps to remember that the current rules of competitive judo have evolved to fit the constraint of a one-day tournament, sometimes of 40-50 entries, in the case of the World Championships. Time management becomes important - kinda like how the times limits of the UFC have evolved.

So competition rules have changed to simplify deciding a victor in the course of a single 5 minute period.

I'm reminded of Rulan Gardner's Olympic victory. His one point came from a somewhat artificial situation created by the rules. As I understand it, a high levels, too often competitors stalemate, force overtime, them more overtime.

Makes it harder to manage a tournament; it upsets match timing.

In the Gardner-Karelin match, the first match ended without a score. So, to force a score in this case, the competitors are started in a clinch - a coin flip, IIRC, decides who takes the dominant grip. The competitor taking the grip must score before releasing the grip (or, at least, maintain the grip for a certain period of time, can't remember).

Karelin released his grip; Gardner got the point. That was the only point scored.

From a pure grappling standpoint, it was somewhat anti-climactic - the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler loses his match due to a pretty minor mistake.

But in competition, deciding a winner is more important than esthetically pleasing grappling. I feel the same about the IJF rules.

Doesn't stop me from allowing more open rules in club randori, or the occasional MMA session.

[Roidie McDouchebag]

Not all Judoka are like that though. Some Judo clubs don't teach anything illegal in competition to avoid confusion. That's sad.

BJJ is too far in the other direction for mat work, and too eager to use the guard, but there's a happy medium, and all that crap about Samurai is ridiculous. This isn't feudal Japan.

Judo denies reality as much as BJJ does in its focus. Hence my initial comment that they both suck.

[hl1978]

I like how you're concerned about self-defence and then go on to neglect the grappling art with the significant self-defence component.

i allready have a wrestling background, while BJJ would definatly complement that, I have no expereince in throws.

Why not fill in the area in which I have no real experience prior to working on an area (the ground) in which I have some experience?

[Roidie McDouchebag]

If you've done wrestling, BJJ is what will fill the gap for you, not Judo.

[wakinonioi]

i allready have a wrestling background, while BJJ would definatly complement that, I have no expereince in throws.

What kind of wrestling background do you have that you "have no experience in throws"?

[Shuma-Gorath]

From my experience, and apparently your own ( http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30216 ), I'd have to argue that judo has the more significant self-defense component.

The stuff you describe in that thread, and more, is what BJJ dropped from judo, in favor of ground submissions.

Yeah, but while self-defence may be anemic in some BJJ clubs it's better than this: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30039

[dakotajudo]

Yeah, but while self-defence may be anemic in some BJJ clubs it's better than this: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=30039

That's true.

But it is in no way related to the judo self-defense techniques I was referring to.