Kosen Judo Rear Mount

[Snapp]

If I gather my opponent has the presence of mind to apply that ankle lock without bringing his arm down- can also cross my legs to bait his arm down and get it under one of my hooks, which only drives my figurative penis deeper into his rectum- I don't try it; it's one of those things you can do, and by the time you've got rear mount with your hooks in you may have figured out whether or not it's worth the risk.

Well chin down with one arm defending your neck does offer some protection and your hand is only needed briefly.

I was told once by a brown belt that one simple way to escape rear mount was to protect your neck with one hand while removing one of your opponents hooks with the other. Similar principle here.

But honestly this isnt something that comes up much, if at all in practice. Most people learn right away not to cross the feet.

[NSLightsOut]

That version of hadaka jime is actually quite effective at getting a tap, possibly more so than struggling to get your hand all the way through for the "proper" version. It won't choke people out nearly as fast, but a forearm across the trachea is a nasty thing indeed.

Interestingly, I find that this variation of the RNC is also effective at setting up the more usual BJJ ideal, as the palm to palm grip gives you a fairly large amount of leverage in getting the choking arm positioned. If I don't get one, I'll get the other.

Food for thought.

Hell I have crossed my legs on people specifically to see if they'd bring a hand away from their neck to try and setup ankle lock, once the hand was away and I had my arm just a little more under their chin it was a simple matter of uncrossing my legs no matter how they grabbed them with one hand.

More flexible people, myself included, can set up the ankle lock hands-free. This kind of baiting your partner is potentially very dangerous. Better to either work your submission setups from back mount, or just leave it and transition to mount.

[El Neko]

Hell I though you guys have killed Judo vs BJJ threads long time ago, but it seems to be alive and kicking.
Lets agree to disagree, Judo and BJJ have diferent goals, different ways to do the same ****, they have to worry about different things and obviously don't get respect from each other.

let's move on with our lives

[Shuma-Gorath]

Lets agree to disagree, Judo and BJJ have diferent goals, different ways to do the same ****, they have to worry about different things and obviously don't get respect from each other.

let's move on with our lives

Concessions like these should not be allowed when one solution is clearly better than the other.

[Aesopian]

I award this debate to Dreadnought.

[dakotajudo]

"Look, either you're too dumb to get that Aesopian was pointing out a flaw in Judo's grappling game"

I never saw that be applied, so I dont think its a major Judo technique rather then a personal thing from the one performing it.

Crossing ankles is not a major judo technique - in fact, more mainstream judo references (and most judoka) teach the counter to crossed ankles. Kawaishi calls it hiza-tori-garami; Mifune calls in ashi-kudaki.

To even start this thread shows to me some ignorance of judo. KOSEN judo is really just a subset of mainstream judo, primarily a competition style adopted by a few high-schools (the KOSEN schools - the name is an acronym).

The strategy of dropping to the ground was developed as a way for inexperienced (i.e. freshmen) judoka to force a draw against more experienced competitors. For that reason, while there's some useful ideas in KOSEN, it's not what I consider the epitome of judo grappling.

It's high school judo.

To better understand judo's grappling game, try "The Canon of Judo", Kawaishi's "My Method of Judo" or Feldenkrais' "Higher Judo, Ground Work". I also hear Oda's book is pretty good, and Vital Judo, but I don't have those, so I can't say. And don't forget Kudo.

As for the original image, whether tori has crossed his ankles or not is a non-issue - it should be obvious that uke is in no position to attempt an ankle lock. It may that crossed-ankles is a better counter to uke's attempted escape, but I can't say just now without a partner to test that idea, so I won't defend that position.

[WhiteShark]

For all those that think having a good RNC will save your ankles. I've seen good sub wrestlers crank the ankle lock with their legs while defending the RNC. Its a little gimmicky but not less gimmicky than crossing your ankles in the first place. In other words, DON'T CROSS YOUR ANKLES.

[Teh El Macho]

Does anyone has a picture of a ankle lock done on someone that crossed his ankles when doing a RNC (or in a similar situation)???? I'm trying to visualize that ****. Or, if you can point me to a reference (website,book,etc), that would be great, too.

Thanks.

[Honey Badger]

More flexible people, myself included, can set up the ankle lock hands-free. This kind of baiting your partner is potentially very dangerous. Better to either work your submission setups from back mount, or just leave it and transition to mount.

Are you talking about hooking the crossed ankles with the crook of your knee? I managed to do that once, but it was against another grappling noob.

[NSLightsOut]

I'm talking about figure-4ing/triangling my legs over my opponent's crossed ankles