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  1. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2005 4:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyS
    The problem with trying to get the submission before the position - unless you're a freak like Marcelo Garcia - is that the guy can escape while you're trying to get the sub and you end up losing a great position.
    That is why BJJ's ground game is more extensive, the submission first is a result of time limits and the chance that a ref will stand people up.

    Also comes around to the fact that Judo class is at most 1/2 newaza and BJJ class is almost always a great deal more.

    The position in the picture is not bad as long as the person uncrosses the ankles if he feels the lock.

    I have never heard the Japanese say maximum results with minimum effort stuff. I usually hear that it is power and technique applied precisely.
    Last edited by MONGO; 12/22/2005 4:33pm at .
  2. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2005 4:40pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    The way it is done in Judo is the RNC or Hakada Jime will already be sunk on and then the hips are locked so there is leverage for a the guy on back to arch into the choke. It is difficult to do anything to the ankles if the person has leverage and the choke is already applied.

    This set up may be inferior to the BJJ one but it is not as simple as just apply an ankle lock. The entire situation is the result in different theory, Bjj's position before sub, and Judo's sub as position is gained or submission first then position.
    I don't follow; you're saying you already have the choke and then cross your ankles? Or are you saying that having your ankles crossed isn't so bad because you can choke him anyway? The first way is just ineffcient since you could use proper, safe hooks or a body triangle, and the second way just sets up a race between an ankle lock and a choke. I wouldn't even want to risk my ankle like that in a self-defence situation, especially since ligaments higher in the knee can be torn too.

    The time you spend apologizing for crappy techniques could be spent learning better ones.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 12/22/2005 4:47pm at .
  3. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2005 9:55pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Look, either you're too dumb to get that Aesopian was pointing out a flaw in Judo's grappling game"

    I never saw that be applied, so I dont think its a major Judo technique rather then a personal thing from the one performing it.

    Either way, when you have so little time on the ground you tend to have a more agressive and fast ne waza wich unfourtunatly means submission before position, or at the same time, this leads to techniques that are not perfectly applied because there is no time for the details, wich means some times you got to establish your position any way you can, even if you risk beeing submited.
  4. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2005 10:00pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Which is a major flaw with Judo's training focus in many schools. It's comparable to TKD point sparring teaching you to keep your hands low because you don't have to worry about getting punched in the face.
  5. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2005 10:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's certainly something to be said for standing up and trying to run away at the appropriate time in a fight, but being inside a triangle choke is not one of those times.
  6. Snapp is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2005 11:47pm


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    The position in the picture is not bad as long as the person uncrosses the ankles if he feels the lock.
    When I was taught the lock I was told the first thing you do is trap the ankle with your hand. Holding it in place so it can't be uncrossed. Then set up the lock and apply it.
  7. Stick is offline
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    Mostly, I just sit here. Mostly.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2005 12:02am

    hall of famestaff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's the thing though, using your hands to setup the lock leaves you rather undefended for the choke. Hell I have crossed my legs on people specifically to see if they'd bring a hand away from their neck to try and setup ankle lock, once the hand was away and I had my arm just a little more under their chin it was a simple matter of uncrossing my legs no matter how they grabbed them with one hand. Never mind if the dumb son of a bitch reached down with both hands, that brings his shoulders away from his neck and leaves him about as open as it gets, short of having him just his chin into the air.

    Giving someone what they want is often the path to fucking them in the ass, true in so many aspects of life.
    Last edited by Stick; 12/23/2005 12:08am at .
  8. Moleculo is offline
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    nuthin' ta f*ck with

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2005 12:54am

    supporting member
     Style: MT/SUB GRAPPLING

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Baiting someone is what it's all about as long as your opponent is thinking one step behind you...or slower than you.
  9. Stick is offline
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    Mostly, I just sit here. Mostly.

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2005 12:59am

    hall of famestaff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I gather my opponent has the presence of mind to apply that ankle lock without bringing his arm down- can also cross my legs to bait his arm down and get it under one of my hooks, which only drives my figurative penis deeper into his rectum- I don't try it; it's one of those things you can do, and by the time you've got rear mount with your hooks in you may have figured out whether or not it's worth the risk.
  10. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2005 2:01am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    I don't undestand how judoka can do hakada jime straight across the throat with a palm-to-palm grip when they are supposed to have an art based on "maximum effect with minimum effort".
    That version of hadaka jime is actually quite effective at getting a tap, possibly more so than struggling to get your hand all the way through for the "proper" version. It won't choke people out nearly as fast, but a forearm across the trachea is a nasty thing indeed.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
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