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  1. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:30pm

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     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Has it been proven if he actually did introduce the 18 hands of lohan to Shaolin?
    No. In fact a historical analysis seems to indicate Damo never stopped at Shaolin and the 18 Hands were developed separately.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  2. sn7 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2006 10:47pm


     Style: TKD, Wing Chun, Ninjitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    bodi darma was a Puerto Rican guy. he was destined to teach china the 29 hands of san juan, but on the way to china, he stopped by japan, and Korea, creating the ancestors of Bruce lee, Mas Oyama, and Jigoro Kano. he then went to china to teach the 29 hands, but he died before he could teach all 29, leaving it at 18.
  3. heng fa is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 3:12am


     Style: shaolin temple

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    As an aside would ANYONE learn MA's off a guy who cut off his own sword hand because he killed with it? What a retarded take on the martial aspects of life.
    This was Ji Guang, not Damo. I think the first mention of Damo in a text is located in a Record of the Buddhist Monasteries of Luoyang (547) by Yang Xuanzhi. In it Damo is referred to as a Persian. Anyway, one of his other disciples- who may have had a grudge going for Hui Ke, said that Hui Ke lost his arm to bandits.

    Ji Guang's name was changed to Hui Ke. He is the 2nd patriarch in the Chinese lineage of Ch'an transmission. That is why old skool Shaolin monks only use one hand in their bow- to pay tribute.

    One of Damo's disciples was a princess who became a nun, her nunnery is up the way a bit from the Shaolin Temple.

    Also, another disciple indicated- his name was I think Tan Lung or something- he wrote a text called the 2 Entrances- he tells that Damo was the third son of an Indian King, and he was from the kshatriya- silent k- caste. As such, MA training in some form would have been open to him and I think reasonably assumed.

    But Damo is not the first person at Shaolin to practice or bring martial arts, and the monks don't say he is. Unless they are new and clueless, lol.

    The first men to practice martial arts in the Temple were two former soldiers, Wei Wong, and Seng Chou. They were disciples of the first abbot, Ba Tuo, so it is common knowledge in the Temple that martial arts practice there predates Damo's supposed arrival.

    There is record of these two monks in some contemperary texts of the time, some of which were cited later- Taiping Guangji- which cites to older source materials, and one of the next examples of the monks fighting is recorded in a stele written by Pei Cui of the Tang, about a struggle between the monks and large groups of bandits- this was the first attack on the temple.

    The legend transmitted to disciples and monks of Shaolin, for what it is worth, is that Damo contributed 4 "martial" practices. 1. The Yi Jin Jing, 2. the Xi Sui Jing- called by us sutras, 3. the Wu Xing Chuan, and 4. Lohan Shi Ba Sho, which became the foundation of a huge system in it's own right with multiple sets stemming off the original 18 "hands."

    I'd also agree wholeheartedly with mutli-point origins of codified or system based fighting arts.

    That just makes sense.

    Has it been proven if he actually did introduce the 18 hands of lohan to Shaolin?
    The best you can really say about this is that the answer is unkown and subject to debate. Good arguments exist on both sides making it inconclusive.
  4. heng fa is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/03/2006 3:17am


     Style: shaolin temple

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    Quote Originally Posted by Planktime
    I also think it is interesting that I have spoken to members of other Chinese arts who describe the bodi as blond with blue eyes. It really depends on who is telling the story and what they look like.
    well...sort of...in several ch'an texts he is referred to as that "Blue Eyed Devil."

    This probably has more to do with the fact that people with blue eyes in many cultures and societies were used as important message bearers, because it is easy to see when a blue eyed person lies, than any actual physical attribute possessed by Damo.

    From the scroll images people draw of him, he has a rather interesting skull, that is for sure.
  5. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 4:47am

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Bernius
    No. In fact a historical analysis seems to indicate Damo never stopped at Shaolin and the 18 Hands were developed separately.

    - Matt
    Wow. Is this analysis available online? Or can you give a reference? I would def love to read this.
  6. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 9:37am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

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    Eternal Rage

    You may or may not be writing brilliant comments. I'll never know because every time I try to read one I just end up staring at your avatar
  7. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 11:07am

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     Style: Kung Fu

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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Wow. Is this analysis available online? Or can you give a reference? I would def love to read this.
    I mentioned a good summary article in my first post:

    For a succinct overview of this, check out Chris Toepker's essay Damo: A conspiracy of ignorance
    http://www.hungkuen.net/history-damo.htm

    Toepker outlines a number of works that call Damo into question. It's a good quick read, and while not academically citing, it provides a good jumping off point.

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  8. heng fa is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2006 11:20am


     Style: shaolin temple

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    nobody in Shaolin considers the Yi Jin Jing to be a "book." But I have seen ma's outside Shaolin refer to it that way.

    He roasts what is supposedly a sacred cow, that Damo originated Shaolin martial arts, but as I have already mentioned nobody at Shaolin thinks that, because it is known that Ba To's first 2 disciples were both martial artists. Just because Damo did not originate does not mean however that he did not contribute. People tend to throw bathwater out with babies in these essays.

    Toepker's assertion that Damo would not have used a written text is also a logical fallacy, as in some citations he was credited with using the lankavatara sutra.

    The 6th Patriarch in his lineage wrote a sutra so what does that mean.

    It's not a bad article overall, but I do think it is lacking in clarity.
  9. Oya Qhoze is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2006 4:30pm


     Style: Lung Su Matoo ,Kenboya

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    Yes SIR I Do...

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba12
    I was told by a guy that taught Aikido that Bodi Dharma was an African. I had thought he was from India so I did a little research and everything I found said he was from India. One day while watching a special on the Martial arts on the discovery channel it stated that Bodi Dharma was an African. Does anyone have any info on this?
    He was in fact a east Indian prince,from East India Know that a lot of east Indians are very dark some, :icon_rr: as dark as Afrikan people also remeber that he may have went though Afrikan to learn the many stiyles that he shared... :icon_rr: , ps I know there are so many things out there,?
  10. garbanzo is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2006 4:39pm

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     Style: MMA, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oya Qhoze
    He was in fact a east Indian prince,from East India Know that a lot of east Indians are very dark some, :icon_rr: as dark as Afrikan people also remeber that he may have went though Afrikan to learn the many stiyles that he shared... :icon_rr: , ps I know there are so many things out there,?
    Actually, he was an Eskimo. He adapted seal hunting techniques into a Martial Art and taught it to the monks. The original Shao Lin Temple was an igloo, but it melted with the Spring thaw. He used that event as a metaphor to teach his desicples about impermanence.

    It's a little known fact that the Eskimos, in addition to all Asians, were descended from the Olmec. That's why Bodhidarma was so dark. Contrary to popular belief, the migration across the Berring Straight was from the American continent, not the other way around.

    And of course the Olmec were descended from visitors from another planet.

    Wanna know how I know so much?
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