TKD vs. KK

**Pagan** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 7:34pm

This is no suprise. Korean styles have a history of dominating the UFC.

here is Kuk Sool Won kikking ass in the UFC against wrestling.

Kuk Sool Won

**Vile** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 9:49pm

I think you have misunderstood what "Dominate" means.

dom·i·nate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dm-nt)
v. dom·i·nat·ed, dom·i·nat·ing, dom·i·nates
v. tr.
To control, govern, or rule by superior authority or power: Successful leaders dominate events rather than react to them.
To exert a supreme, guiding influence on or over: Ambition dominated their lives.
To enjoy a commanding, controlling position in: a drug company that dominates the tranquilizer market.
To overlook from a height: a view from the cliffside chalet that dominates the valley.

v. intr.
To have or exert strong authority or mastery.
To be situated in or occupy a position that is more elevated or decidedly superior to others.

Try alternative words like "fluke" "isolated" "unique" "one-off" "unsubstantiated" "fallacious" and "blatant" in connection with "lies"

Try training in another style - even just visit another school and stop relying on your 2 years of Kuk Sool Won as the be all and end all of MA.

And stop being a troll.

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 12/22/2005 2:38am

First off, is it WTF rules? The TKD fighter is bouncing around with hands down which points directly to WTF, but the rules they fought was not Olympic style. In fact, it looked like point sparring because the ref kept stopping them - whether its because they were clinching or running out of the ring, or whatever, its too hard to tell with the video quality.

Secondly the jumping sidekick was nicely executed but after he hit the guy his recovery was disgusting. You can pause the video at a point where his arms and legs are all extended in all different directions. Nice kick, good aim/timing, bad recovery.

**hapkido_keith** · Posted On: 12/22/2005 2:47am

Originally Posted by Satori

I've got lots of respect for the few hardcore TKD practitioners that I've met, and I think that any style (trained hard enough) has merit.

As for "t3h r34l kyokushin" (that is really hard to type fast)...all I know is that from what little I've read/heard about KK.

Basically, I've been under the impression that it takes an average of 6+ years to reach shodan in KK (with exceptional COMPETITORS often reaching black before), whereas the same can't be said of ALL TKD schools (yes, I've met instructors that have the same standards, but I think we can all agree on an absence of a general standard).

Kind of like having a black belt in BJJ, or a nice looking fight record; you begin to assume a certain capability inherent within certain credentials. Seeing the black belt on the KK guy made me assume certain capabilities.

As such, when I see a KK black belt get spanked by a TKD black belt, it makes me think several things. The discrepancies in the KK guy's stance/guard also made me wonder.

1. (obvious) The TKD guy was a better athlete, and more accustomed to the particular rules of the tournament. Better athlete won, no contest. Good job!

or

2. The KK guy was thoroughly taken by surprise with the rules and format, and had to "wing it". Maybe they limited head contact...or penalized certain contact levels. As such, the KK guy was "thrown off his game". Still, the better prepared athlete won. Good job!

I do see your point, though, in that no one questions anything when the TKD guy gets creamed...but people wig out when a full-contact stylist gets smacked.

I don't know much about kyokushin either. I can say that the KK guy seemed to be the agressor but he did drop his hands too much. I think what did it at the end is that the KK guy didn't consider the TKD guy a threat at that distance. Kind of "He's way over there I don't have to give him 100% of my attention at this moment" and the TKD guy seized the lapse in awareness. He did get across that mat pretty fast, which is a tribute to what I saw as a well and often practiced technique on the TKD guy's part, and it worked.

However, I do not wish to defend TKD in general, just that this particular fighter in this particular match (which looked to me to be full, or at least hard, contact) came out on top. Most TKD schools are bullshido (I've never personally seen one that is not). The sad thing is that the basic premise for TKD, to fight by punching and kicking, is sound. But to use colorful asian sounding metaphors: the path of hand and foot fighting has become so overgrown with the weeds of bullshido and so intertwined with the distractions of materialism that it is often impossible to find where the true path actually lies. Bullshido is like a cancer and TKD a terminally ill patient. It has infested it to such a point that uninfected tissue is nearly impossible to find.

Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin

So ,one guy convinced a KK guy to fight in TKD rules one beat him

That's a load of **** and you know it. If a TKD guy went to a KK tournament, got kicked in the face, then said "Well, under TKD rules I would have won," would you take him seriously? How do you know what the rules were for the fight in the clip? Please, fill us in, I would like to know. Once you have done that, please explain what the difference is between those rules and the rules the kyokushin guy would normally fight under and how those rules created the opening for him to take a side kick to the face. He got beat, plain and simple. Stop making excuses for him.

edited to fix quote box

**Vile** · Posted On: 12/22/2005 3:12am

This was WTF rules - it says so int he title of the clip and it also states that the TKD guy is a WTF fighter.

Kyokushin KNockdown is TOTALLY different to WTF Knockdown Rules

Note its called knockdown not knockout becasue a lot fo the time you are concious but can't get back up.

Interesting in that the Kyokushin fighter is obviously fighting for the WTF rules - not punching, not throwing low kicks, and not keeping his hand up. Look at the ref when the TKD guy throws the jump kick - he has to dive out of the way. Looks like a retaliation for the nasty roundhouse to the body the TKD guy took a second before. Would be interesting to see the rest of the fight.

For picks of Kyokushin knockdown fighting try this

This is the current head of the style doing his hundred man kumite - 100 full contact fights in less than 4 hours.

Since we fight full contact not points (a full point for us is a knockout) we keep our hands up. Seeing the same KK blckbelt fight under different rules I would guess he would fight totally differently. As I mentioend earlier he has no kanku on his dogi, which is unusual. He appears to have a kanji but its not clear enough to establish he is KK - it would be great if they said which tournament, where and what the KK fighters name was.

I think the KK fighter knew what he was getting into - the way he was fighting was too alien to KK not for him to be trying to fight WTF rules. He may even have TKD experience. I wish the rest of the fight and some more info were there.

That's a load of **** and you know it. If a TKD guy went to a KK tournament, got kicked in the face, then said "Well, under TKD rules I would have won,"

Not really. Changing from fighting points to full contact or vice-cersa is difficult. It llooked to me like the "surprise" (before ref called ready) jump kick was in retaliation to the KK fighter making too much contact - look at the TKD guys face after the roundhouse to the torso. A TKD fighter fighting in KK tourney would be KTFO if he got kciked in the head. Full contact. Get it?

If you don't think I know what I am on about, here is a pic of me fighting a TKD blackbelt who switched to KK to get some power and train full contact (been with us about a year of full on training) in a KK tourney under KK rules.

Went 3 rounds to a judges decision (I won - just). So I know what TKD can do when the fighter is trained to use it properly (and incidentally trained in all the techniques TKD and most trad Jap Karate's are missing).

**Thaiboxerken** · Posted On: 12/24/2005 11:31pm

It looks to me like the KK guy was still messing with his belt when the WTF guy came in with his flying hogan stomp.

**CanucKyokushin** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 12:15am

Yeah!What Vile said.

Also and more importantly the reason why I know it was TKD rules was that the guy was fighting in traditional TKD stance.That's why I know it was TKD and not KK.Also , and Vile brought it up.He did not punch once.In KK tournaments fighters punch an awful lot.I don't remember the KK fighter sending one punch to his opponent in that clip.

Also ,one thing to mention about the core philosophie of KK or Karate in general.I'm not really up in arms about the outcome of the fight.You see in Karate you are expected to be ready to fight at any time.The KK fighter should have never droped his concentration and he did.And the result was that that proved to be a mistake.

I'm sure it was a mistake he continues to regret.

So ultimately who would have won the fight?I don't know.

But I know I learned a valuable lesson.

**kikkoman** · Posted On: 12/25/2005 10:17am

Originally Posted by Vile

This was WTF rules - it says so int he title of the clip and it also states that the TKD guy is a WTF fighter.

It doesn't say it's WTF rules. It just says the TKD guy comes from the WTF.

"This is a fight between a WTF (Olympic) Tae Kwon Do black belt and a Kyokushin Karate black belt."

The ref only seperates them when they go out of the ring or when they are grappling. No different than a boxing match might do.

Originally Posted by Vile

Interesting in that the Kyokushin fighter is obviously fighting for the WTF rules - not punching, not throwing low kicks, and not keeping his hand up.

He does throw punches, just not to the head. Maybe it is WTF rules, but it may or may not be. I think some KK schools don't allow punches to the head either so it might be a result of that.

Originally Posted by Vile

Not really. Changing from fighting points to full contact or vice-cersa is difficult. It llooked to me like the "surprise" (before ref called ready) jump kick was in retaliation to the KK fighter making too much contact - look at the TKD guys face after the roundhouse to the torso. A TKD fighter fighting in KK tourney would be KTFO if he got kciked in the head. Full contact. Get it?

WTF point fighting is full contact. There are points and there is no punches to the face allowed, but you can kick full contact to the head, and punch full power to the body. There is no rule against full power body punches, it's just they dont' get scored so people don't throw them.