TKD vs. KK

**SuperGuido** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 4:48pm

Originally Posted by hapkido_keith

So he didn't have t3h r34l kyokushin?
How do you know it was WTF rules? I didn't see anyplace that specifies what rules were used or where this took place; just that it featured a TKD guy and came from a TDK source. Now, I laugh at TKD McDojangs as much as the next Bullshido member, but it seems there is a bias here that misses the obvious empirical truth: a TKD blackbelt kicked the crap out of a kyokusin blackbelt in what looked like a full-contact tournament. TKD wins again... er... once.

I've got lots of respect for the few hardcore TKD practitioners that I've met, and I think that any style (trained hard enough) has merit.

As for "t3h r34l kyokushin" (that is really hard to type fast)...all I know is that from what little I've read/heard about KK.

Basically, I've been under the impression that it takes an average of 6+ years to reach shodan in KK (with exceptional COMPETITORS often reaching black before), whereas the same can't be said of ALL TKD schools (yes, I've met instructors that have the same standards, but I think we can all agree on an absence of a general standard).

Kind of like having a black belt in BJJ, or a nice looking fight record; you begin to assume a certain capability inherent within certain credentials. Seeing the black belt on the KK guy made me assume certain capabilities.

As such, when I see a KK black belt get spanked by a TKD black belt, it makes me think several things. The discrepancies in the KK guy's stance/guard also made me wonder.

1. (obvious) The TKD guy was a better athlete, and more accustomed to the particular rules of the tournament. Better athlete won, no contest. Good job!

or

2. The KK guy was thoroughly taken by surprise with the rules and format, and had to "wing it". Maybe they limited head contact...or penalized certain contact levels. As such, the KK guy was "thrown off his game". Still, the better prepared athlete won. Good job!

I do see your point, though, in that no one questions anything when the TKD guy gets creamed...but people wig out when a full-contact stylist gets smacked.

**CanucKyokushin** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 5:04pm

Originally Posted by Emevas

I always love how the defenses fly in threads like these, but in threads were TKD loses, it's just because TKD sucks =P

The clip was posted before, but it's still a cool find.

....and how many discussions have there been when a clip is found of a BJJ blue belt tourning a Judoka into a human pretzel?There's never any discusion beyond that "Judo sux" or the Judo he was using was a watered-down family friendly fighitng.No one mentions the fact that both styles exist for 2 different fighting principles.

But in this case so what?Big freaking deal?One TKD guy won in a bout against a KK blackbelt.

How many would you say of TKD blackbelts went home to their mommas because a Kyokushin BB gave him a black eye?

**Emevas** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 5:07pm

And once again the egos get bruised =P

**CanucKyokushin** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 5:28pm

You know I'm right? Techniques being taught in 90 percent TKD dojangs around the world are ineffective or watered-down. So ,one guy convinced a KK guy to fight in TKD rules one beat him .That doesn’t impress me one bit.

BTW! If you think I'm mad by the result of this bout clip you're wrong.

**Emevas** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 5:32pm

My whole point is that no one can watch one of these without feeling the need to defend Kyokushin.

Seriously, we all know Kyo is a solid art. It doesn't need to be defended. It just seems like everyone has such fragile egos over their art if they need to rush to it's aid when just one isolated clip of it losing is presented.

I just sit back and laugh.

**CanucKyokushin** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 5:39pm

We'll I have to admit i did expect a lot of the TKD **** heads to stick their heads in here to give their un-asked opinion's.

So as It stands:

TKD 1
KK ??

**Vile** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 5:54pm

TKD and Kyokushin are roughly similar as far as techniques. They both have side kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks, axe kicks, round house with the ball of the foot, ect.

Very roughly. There are big differences in the mechanics of the kicking based on the intended application, as well as differences in balance/positioning and recovery. Stike surfaces are also different.

The hand techniques are hugely disimilar.

As I've said before, trained with proper application TKD can provide a good basis for effective fighting. There are a lot of TKD fighters who switch to KK after a loss and very quickly transfer their skills to full contact. My last tournament I fought a TKD black belt who had switched to KK in the finals. VERY fast kicks, very good mobility, coupled with solid contact and awesome conditioning. Went 3 rounds and I won be decision. I think he got broken ribs though as I haven't seen him at training in a while.

My current training partner is also ex-TKD and is making huge strides in learning full contact (he also boxed which helps).

Its awseome to see that there are srtill some pure TKD stylists who can fight. Kudos to the TKD guy on his victory. I do have to say that I can only view the first 30 seconds or so before my work stops the buffering, but the technique does look nothing like any Kyokushin I have seen in that bit - I'll comment more when I have seen more - and just cos it doesn't look like the KK I know it doesn't mean it isn't - I ahve seen a lot of highly divergent and very effective fighters. I do find it odd that there doesn't seem to be either a kanku or a KK kanji on his dogi. AGain will ahve to watch more later to see if I can pick one out. I wish they would let me compete in full contact no padding TKD comps.

The sad thing is, this shows even more how bad most TKD schools are. If they all aimed to turn out fighters like this (and there was another TKD vs KK clip with a guy called Pat Douimba or something where the TKD guy won and used throws effectively too) the style wouldn't have acquired the reputation it has, and unfortuantley deserves as turning out appalling fighters.

**MaverickZ** · Posted On: 12/21/2005 6:05pm

Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin

You know I'm right? Techniques being taught in 90 percent TKD dojangs around the world are ineffective or watered-down.

most of them are just taught wrong. a prime example... the chambered kick.

in a majority of dojangs chambering is taught as a "preparation" event before the kick occurs. many instructors say this is so that you can adjust and not telegraph your kicks. i'm no master, but in my experience, this is just wrong.

the chamber is done as you kick not as a separate step. take the roundhouse.

in a typical dojang it's taught as:
pivot on supporting foot
bring up leg in a chambered position and rotate hips
extend lower part of leg to kick
rechamber
bring leg down

that's all fine and dandy, but what they all forget is that that is ALL one motion. the rotation, the chamber the kick are one fluid motion that's coupled with hip rotation.

you have no idea how many times i've seen sparring done where people do those steps as separate finite movements. and effectively remove all momentum from their kick.

it's as if some instructors don't understand what they are teaching. they don't see kicks as one fluid motion, but as a series of individual steps. no wrong.

/rant