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  1. _Mick_ is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2005 3:50pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Seven
    Heh thats funny.

    Right beside sasae there is another throw very good to do No Gi, Tai otoshi, its fast, unexpected and if you miss you can recouver quickly http://judoinfo.com/images/animation.../taiotoshi.htm

    Tai otoshi is my bread and butter throw. Its the only throw I can consistently use to score ippon. The only way I can see it working without a gi is with a left hand over hook and having the right hand behind their neck. If you have an underhook, you are probably going to be too close and end up sitting on uke.

    If you have an underhook it is easier to get in a solid harai goshi.
  2. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/19/2005 4:15pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Or koshi-guruma - similar entry, but less likely to slip the throw without a gi to grip.

    I'm kinda a purist with respect to tai-otoshi - I don't think tai-otoshi should involve much upper body contact - kinda excludes an underhooked version. But that's me - a lot of what some people call tai-otoshi I prefer to call koshi-guruma (or even ashi-guruma - some like the back of the calf to contact uke's shin - to me, that's a guruma).

    But that's more a matter of semantics.
    No, I agree with you in terms of it being more of a guruma, technically speaking. Tai otoshi is sort of like uchimata in the sense that few people actually perform it traditionally. But as a matter of practicality, I knew what he was referring to and most people would tend to call that a tai otoshi. Personally though, I think if I could get a tai otoshi, no gi, I'd probably just go for a harai.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakota judo
    As for sleeping - a real martial artist sleeps on his back, with two cats laying on his stomach. When the ninjas jump in the room, the first cat wakes you up, the second you throw at the ninjas.
    LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick
    The only way I can see it working without a gi is with a left hand over hook and having the right hand behind their neck. If you have an underhook, you are probably going to be too close and end up sitting on uke.

    If you have an underhook it is easier to get in a solid harai goshi.
    I agree with you about the Harai, I think that regardless of the grip (over or under hook), a harai would be more effective no gi anyway for most people.

    You may be right about the overhook being superior for a tai otoshi, I'm not sure.

    I never used tai otoshi in a no gi setting, so I don't know for sure how it would play out. But I think that in terms of wrestling and with my height, I'd be more effective with an underhook, but like I said, I'd have to try it to figure that out.

    Remember though, and this goes to Dakotajudo's point as well, westling will be different than MMA due to the stance. A wrestling stance places your opponents hips well behind his upper body. I don't think it would be difficult to get the kuzushi for a tai otoshi without sinking your hips into your opponent, even with an underhook. I think in MMA it would be more difficult though.

    Once again, I wouldn't consider tai otoshi a high percentage no gi throw for most people. I had a decent judo tai otoshi before I began wrestling, yet I never once even thought about using it while wrestling.
  3. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/19/2005 4:40pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    Remember though, and this goes to Dakotajudo's point as well, westling will be different than MMA due to the stance. A wrestling stance places your opponents hips well behind his upper body. I don't think it would be difficult to get the kuzushi for a tai otoshi without sinking your hips into your opponent, even with an underhook. I think in MMA it would be more difficult though.
    True the hips part. I've tried to do ippon seoi on wrestlers; even the drop-knee version is iffy - you pretty much gotta change the whole entry.

    Another complication to add to MMA - when we do MMA-style sparring, I find I tend to get a left-arm overhook more easily than an underhook.

    Partly, it may be that I have a bad right shoulder, so I fight with a left-forward stance. Which matches up differently against my students (I guess I could say training partners, but since Ido dictate the course of practice, yeah, I'm the man in charge) - anyway, one of my students is a boxer.

    So, when he does judo randori he takes a right-foot forward stance. But, for MMA, he fights in his left-forward, boxing stance.

    The upshot of this is that it's easier for me to slip his cross and move into an overhook, than it is to try to underhook - the underhook leaves that arm more free to punch, the overhook is a better control. And, since I face right against left during judo-style randori, but left against left in MMA randori, it just seems to be easier, MMA style - there's not the controlling lapel grip to work past.

    So with MMA sparring I use overhook-harai goshi - but I can't say that's so much a difference in style (though, from the above, I can make a good argument), since I tend to use harai-goshi/ashi-guruma in gi randori as well. I like the overhook-to-lapel for gi randori. I guess I don't underhook much at all, really, but that's another story.

    Anyway, for this one student - the one that competes MMA, he doesn't use the overhook-harai-goshi as well. For him, it's an un-natural left-sided throw. We tried drilling the left version, but we've found, for him, at least, the left overhook and turn to right koshiguruma works better.

    He tried a left-side throw once in MMA competition - lucky he had a chump, 'cause the throw went pear-shaped. I don't think he intended to enter left sided, but slipping punches put him there.
  4. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2005 9:16am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well I guess that if you can do a tai otoshi you can also slip in an harai goshi or ushi mata its really just a mtter of preference I guess, I find that from the three, tai otoshi takes less comitment therefore if you miss its not so dificult to recuperate but if you try harai goshi or ushi mata things go diferently.

    This is off topic but, your student that practices boxing, does he has the 2 stances ? one for grappling and one for striking ? I thought it was better to force yourself to choose one and stick with it.
  5. NorthWest is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2005 9:49am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    I'm probably a little too competitive, especially for my age and injury status. I still post out of most thows if I can even in a laid back randori. I hate giving it up even when it really doesn't mean anything. The exception of course is when I'm working with lower belts. My focus is now on training more intelligently and staying injury free, so I'm working on correcting that.

    I once saw a guy do a complete flip in mid air and land on his feet as the result of an ippon seionage. It was absolutely amazing. His hands didn't touch the ground or anything.
    My entire skeleton aches just from reading that.
    I am a really boring judoka. If I'm caught, I'm caught. I take the throw and roll.

    Sasae holds a special place in my heart, as it gave me my first ever competitive win, quite aside from it's ease of use and no-gi utility.
  6. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/20/2005 10:30am

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthWest
    My entire skeleton aches just from reading that.
    I am a really boring judoka. If I'm caught, I'm caught. I take the throw and roll.
    No, I'd say that makes you a smart judoka. That's the way it should be, especially in randori.
  7. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/20/2005 9:27pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Seven
    This is off topic but, your student that practices boxing, does he has the 2 stances ? one for grappling and one for striking ? I thought it was better to force yourself to choose one and stick with it.
    Don't know if it's off-topic, if we've moved to a general discussion on no-gi throws.

    Part of the background - my student was a boxer for a few years before he started judo - mainly he wanted to learn grappling.

    He's right-handed, so he learned right-handed throws - right hand forward for the power grip. Didn't consider his stance at the time, really didn't think about it - mostly I thought he was kinda stiff-legged from the boxing, and I was mainly concerned with adjusting that.

    He trained boxing separately, so I never saw him fight stand-up like that.

    As far as stance goes for judo, I'm ambivalent - I like the idea of being able to throw from either grip, but then I realize that you also need to have at least one throw that you can count on under duress. Training to do both is kinda hard - you can become kinda good at a lot of throws, or really good a one throw. So I mix it up a bit, some practice is ambidextrous (like nage-no-kata), but most training (i.e. plyometric drills) is one sided.

    And, since my student is right-handed, the training was right forward stance.

    All this training for right forward stance, and I didn't realize he preferred left forward for stand-up - we only recently started MMA competition (and that was a bit unexpected at the time).

    I dunno, we spent some time since, training the left side throws, but for now I think he's more comfortable fighting left foot forward, and switching to right stance if necessary in the clinch. Mostly, his gameplan is to box as much as possible, and ground fight only when necessary, so for him throwing isn't as important as it would be for myself.

    I do know that he hasn't tried to learn to punch from a right forward stance.
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