Barry Bradshaw, head of the Australian Federation of Instructors

**HwangJangLee** · Posted On: 12/16/2005 2:14pm

well it looks like his Chinese Boxing is crap, most chinese arts dont really have degrees do they, pluss his style says its Sil Lum Hung Kuen, Si Lum is a shaolin temple and Hung Kuen is Hung Gar i think, but i really doaubt this guy learned at Si Lum or learend from someone from there.

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 12/16/2005 2:28pm

Originally Posted by kepetri

Thanks. Do you know why they'd put a moritorium on ranks above 8th? Also (while I'm asking stupid questions), I've always heard that Jon Bluming was a ninth in Judo. I'd assume this is from some other organization?

Can't that it's an official moritorium - only thing that I know for sure is that the Kodokan only lists requirements up through 8.

I dunno - it may be Asian respect for ancestors thing - how often do you hear a teacher claim to be as good as their instructor (who, of course, was never as good as his teacher)? So, of course, nobody today can be as good as Kano's original gang members.

Bluming may be a Kodokan 9th dan - but I can't say for sure. He was around with a lot of the old-timers, and if IIRC had a thing going with Geesink, who did make 10th. But then, he also seemed to drift away from the Kodokan, and there were some personal issues. From http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1199.htm - "Only personal habits and tactless actions with fair sex seem to be blocking his 4- dan."

That entire site is a pretty good resource for historical documents - start at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsframe.htm

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 12/16/2005 2:38pm

Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?

http://www.jiujitsu.org.au/kancho.html

The style of Judo the site says they do seems to be Kodokan.

Well, I finally looked at the site - and they do not claim to teach Kodokan judo, but Kawaishi judo - and that's a whole other can of worms.

Kawaishi used an entirely different system of instruction (i.e. different from the Kodokan's gokyo and nage-no-kata method) - plus he included a lot of leg and neck locks prohibited by the Kodokan for friendly competition (note the friendly part).

Some people argue that this is the "real" judo, not the watered-down Olympic-rules post-war-pansy judo taught today. I'm not quite convinced.

Plus, Kawaishi, if I understand correctly, is the bastard responsible for colored belts.

They also claim judo-do, whatever that is - supposedly an extension to judo. I've heard of it, but have no details.

On the positive side, they do appear to at least compete in local judo tournaments.

**kepetri** · Posted On: 12/16/2005 3:21pm

Originally Posted by dakotajudo

Can't that it's an official moritorium - only thing that I know for sure is that the Kodokan only lists requirements up through 8.

I dunno - it may be Asian respect for ancestors thing - how often do you hear a teacher claim to be as good as their instructor (who, of course, was never as good as his teacher)? So, of course, nobody today can be as good as Kano's original gang members.

Bluming may be a Kodokan 9th dan - but I can't say for sure. He was around with a lot of the old-timers, and if IIRC had a thing going with Geesink, who did make 10th. But then, he also seemed to drift away from the Kodokan, and there were some personal issues. From http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1199.htm - "Only personal habits and tactless actions with fair sex seem to be blocking his 4- dan."

That entire site is a pretty good resource for historical documents - start at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsframe.htm

Great Links, thanks again.

Phrost, is there any reason why Bullshido doesn't have a page of links to things like major judo organizations and the like for reference? Or am I just too stupid to find it?

**Ryno** · Posted On: 12/16/2005 6:52pm

This was posted awhile back, but as a side note, here is an entertaining interview with Bluming. He doesn't seem to pull many punches. With his attitude, it actually seems like he'd fit in here at Bullshido. He and JFS would get along great.

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/jonblumi.htm

**Cdnronin** · Posted On: 12/19/2005 9:56am

Originally Posted by dakotajudo

Well, I finally looked at the site - and they do not claim to teach Kodokan judo, but Kawaishi judo - and that's a whole other can of worms.

Kawaishi used an entirely different system of instruction (i.e. different from the Kodokan's gokyo and nage-no-kata method) - plus he included a lot of leg and neck locks prohibited by the Kodokan for friendly competition (note the friendly part).

Some people argue that this is the "real" judo, not the watered-down Olympic-rules post-war-pansy judo taught today. I'm not quite convinced.

Plus, Kawaishi, if I understand correctly, is the bastard responsible for colored belts.

They also claim judo-do, whatever that is - supposedly an extension to judo. I've heard of it, but have no details.

On the positive side, they do appear to at least compete in local judo tournaments.

Kawaishi never claimed a 10th dan, so that still makes Prof. Bradshaw's belt suspicious. I used to have a book on judo and judo-do by Herbert Klingersdorf(sp?), I seem to remember it was an Austrian development of judo.

**Vile** · Posted On: 12/19/2005 4:57pm

The John Bluming interview makes interesting reading, although some of what he says is the same self-aggrandizing and self-promotion he claims to hate. Some of the Oyama claims he rubbishes are dodgy, some are easy to substantiate.

Interesting he talks about liking Nakamura but denigrates his aceivments in Thailand - Fujihira and Nakamura both fought champions and Fujihira wasn't the top player on the handbills/posters for the match, Nakamura was. He also doesn't mention Fujihira won his fight by headbutting his opponent until he was nearly out (legal under the rules back then). Kurosaki lost by TKO (cut).

Given Nakamura was 7th dan under Oyama in 1976 and the designated successor it comes across a little as sour grapes - Nakamura was also a Judo dan grade and a local champ, so the assertations that the early KK didn't know how to grapple is stupid, as are the statements they couldn't have fought in NHB - Honbu fights were well known for going to ground. Modern KK can't grapple, the old guys could and did. Nakamura only claims a 9th dan at the moment, and called himself and 8th dan when he left KK, so that doesn't hold water either.

Anyone claiming a 10th Dan is suspect. Bluming may well be the real deal, but pretty much anyone else outside Japan is likely talking out their ass.

Did anyone but me check the KK-Budokai homepage and notice Gerard GOrdeau (lost to Royce in UFC 1) is a head instructor?

**dakotajudo** · Posted On: 12/19/2005 6:45pm

Originally Posted by Cdnronin

Kawaishi never claimed a 10th dan, so that still makes Prof. Bradshaw's belt suspicious. I used to have a book on judo and judo-do by Herbert Klingersdorf(sp?), I seem to remember it was an Austrian development of judo.

Yeah, that's an important point - Kawaishi apparently had major disgreements with the teachings of the Kodokan, but no so much as to name himself soke of his own style. It's the Kawaishi method, but it's still Kodokan judo.

To bad some other people don't think that way.

You're right about the judo-do bit - I found the wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo-do - note the external link site.

**IndoChinese** · Posted On: 12/26/2005 4:14pm

"From my experience with one of his arts, I wouldn't doubt he knew some Judo, but the 10th dan thing seems absurd. Also, I don't really know that it was him that was making the claim, since he's been dead for quite a while."

most likely true...

what experience is it that you have with these arts, if you dont mind my asking?

Peace.

KTK