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Thread: Jjj Vs Bjj

  1. #41
    NSLightsOut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FictionPimp
    Serious question. From what I understand, its ok to lock ankles, knees, arms (elbow, shoulder, etc) spinal locks, etc. But not wrist locks? What about wrist locks makes them less useful to you guys in grappling over all the other kind of locks that are taught? It seems to me in a self defense situation that acute pain is good no matter how you can get it. And as long as you have control of your opponet you should stay safe (aka dont stand right in front of a guy who has his footing and is trying to punch you and try a wrist lock).

    Is the problem with the improbable chance of catching a punch? Personally I wouldn't try a wrist lock on a guy trying to punch me, I would be waiting for him to try to grapple with me to do a wrist lock. Using it to remove his grip or get a reaction to either try to break something in his wrist, or move to a better position to have more safety and control.

    But I would seriously like to hear your thoughts on why a wrist lock will not working in a bjj type situation.
    They are a much-discounted submission in BJJ, but they are very, very useful, more so with the gi than without. As I recall, Ronaldo Jacare won three matches in one Pan-Ams using the 'mao-de-vaca' standing wristlock. This year's Mundials lightweight champion, Fredson Paxiao, is similarly renowned for his wristlocking skills, both standing and on the ground.

    I've used them for a while as a transitional submission from a failed armlock or omoplata, and something opportunistic if an opponent places their wrist in a lousy position. Recently, some of my training partners have shown me some good standing setups from a lapel grip, which I'm going to be working for the next six months.

  2. #42
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    FictionPimp: Basically, wrist locks are usually considered relatively hard to get on a resisting man in the street because they're fine joint manipulations. That's basically why people consider them poor techniques.
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    FictionPimp: Basically, wrist locks are usually considered relatively hard to get on a resisting man in the street because they're fine joint manipulations. That's basically why people consider them poor techniques.
    Fair enough.

  4. #44
    Still digging on James Brown

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    In my experience, wristlocks can be effective.
    Some sport jujutsu guy with insane grip strength with whom I've sparred a few times has managed to wristlock me aikido style from standing quite a few times.
    The instructor of his club taps me with wristlocks in newaza. (He once caught my relaxed wrist with koto gaesh as I was going for a cross choke from mount and barely left me time to tap.)
    My BJJ instructor goes for wristlocks all the time and nails them, both standing and on the ground.

  5. #45
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    This story only applies to me and other people may differ;

    Wrist locks are a pretty common thing in Bujinkan and one day myself and one of my sparring partners decided to have a grapple match and focus on wrist locks whenever possible. So we were standing up at first and we made verious snatches at each others wrists, only to have the other guy pull their hand out immediatly, so just getting the hand and holding onto it was a real task in itself. Once the fight was on the ground, we did the same thing, we were unable to get a secure hold on the wrist. At one point he got a lock on me, and I just pulled out of it.

    I have heard that they are more effective if you combine them with strikes.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    I smell "sokeship".

    De Pascuale
    Depasquale' son is responsible for a few nutrider magazines. I've got an issue of "Ninja" - showing him in a camo gi, touting his style of "Nin-Ju-Ka". His "Karate International" annoyed me - they kept calling Sr. "O'Sensei"; and he kept publishing about his Groundbreaking (trademark) jujutsu. A bit more hype than substance, seemed to me.

    His stuff seems to be about typical for Americanized jujutsu.

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    I took a seminar from Fernandez a few years back - ju-no-kata. As far as I know, that's how he's won his national titles, can't say anything about his shiai record.

    He performs the kata well, but I can't say more than that - didn't go into any background or details of how the techniques are supposed to work, he mostly emphasized the competition performance.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    FictionPimp: Basically, wrist locks are usually considered relatively hard to get on a resisting man in the street because they're fine joint manipulations. That's basically why people consider them poor techniques.
    It's actually worse than this.
    Firstly, there is verry little leverage avaliable on the wrist, so simply forming a tight fist stops them from working. Imagine if armbars could be stopped by people tensing their arm. Royce Gracie would have got his arse kicked all the way through the inital UFCs.

    Secondly the wrist is at the end of a long and flexible limb on top of a mobile body. If you want to effectively apply a wristlock you have to do it in such away that the wrist is isolated and they can't nullify it simply by moving their elbow, rotating the arm or walking away from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
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  8. #48
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    If you want to effectively apply a wristlock you have to do it in such away that the wrist is isolated and they can't nullify it simply by moving their elbow, rotating the arm or walking away from you.
    -This is why wrist locks are best done in newaza.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    It's actually worse than this.
    Firstly, there is verry little leverage avaliable on the wrist, so simply forming a tight fist stops them from working. Imagine if armbars could be stopped by people tensing their arm. Royce Gracie would have got his arse kicked all the way through the inital UFCs.

    Secondly the wrist is at the end of a long and flexible limb on top of a mobile body. If you want to effectively apply a wristlock you have to do it in such away that the wrist is isolated and they can't nullify it simply by moving their elbow, rotating the arm or walking away from you.
    Under pressure and real resistance I have only pulled wristlocks off from the turtle position while rear mounted as they reached in to get their hooks or RNC . The wrist locks dont usualy sink in but it gives me a second or two while they escape it to regroup and try to move into a better position .

    Maybe one day after enough drills and practice I could use them outside of : "OH **** ! " positions and maybe work them into my game .
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    It's actually worse than this.
    Firstly, there is verry little leverage avaliable on the wrist, so simply forming a tight fist stops them from working. Imagine if armbars could be stopped by people tensing their arm. Royce Gracie would have got his arse kicked all the way through the inital UFCs.
    I dont see what you mean here, I just tried the tight fist with a friend, he performed nikkyo and found the tighter my fist the more pain I was in. Sankyo was obviously nullified, but making a fist made his kotegaeshi even more painful. I can buy its hard to get ahold of the wrist in a fight, but so far I've been unable to prove that a fist defeats wrist locks, in fact it seems that the tension helps the wrist lock. The best defense I've found with wrist locks is relaxing and rotating the arm (and being careful not to rotate into a worse position such as an armbar).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll
    Secondly the wrist is at the end of a long and flexible limb on top of a mobile body. If you want to effectively apply a wristlock you have to do it in such away that the wrist is isolated and they can't nullify it simply by moving their elbow, rotating the arm or walking away from you.
    This is why all wrist locks tipically require you to have kuzushi. If you have their balance they are not walking away from you, and all the wrist locks I know of (except kotegaeshi and possibly yonkyo although I really dont concider it a wrist lock but more of a pressure point) require control of the elbow. if you can't get the arm into the right shape the lock isn't going on. But I've found in standing grappling situations people love to put their arm right into a nikkyo. Its best to hit it and not wait there but use it to transition to something else, another wrist lock or something worse. Just a nice jolt of pain. But you can't' just grab the hand and start trying to twist it. Your going to have to take their balance first or wait for them to put their hand in a stupid place. But I find the same is true for an armbar. I can't just grab a guy and arm bar him, I've got to wait for the right position or create the right position via kuzushi or a takedown/throw.

    So far I think the difficulty getting control of the hand in a stand up situation makes more sense to me, control of the hand is about 80% of the battle, and in grappling situations people I've rolled with dont seem to be aware of it (possibly because its illegal in judo) so it goes on fast.

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