Jjj Vs Bjj

[Goju - Joe]

BTW just want to make it clear I am not doubting BJJ's effectiveness in a street fight .90% of the time a good BJJ pratcioner will destroy people on the street.

[Shawarma]

Do you really believe that, or do you just say it to avoid verbal rapage and to appear unbiased? I can't help but wonder.

[Goju - Joe]

No I say that because if you have the training, agressions and skills that a good BJJ practioner has you'll win most street fights.

Same thing with wrestlers.

Tough bastards.

People can verbal assault me all they want. Don't really care

[FictionPimp]

Serious question. From what I understand, its ok to lock ankles, knees, arms (elbow, shoulder, etc) spinal locks, etc. But not wrist locks? What about wrist locks makes them less useful to you guys in grappling over all the other kind of locks that are taught? It seems to me in a self defense situation that acute pain is good no matter how you can get it. And as long as you have control of your opponet you should stay safe (aka dont stand right in front of a guy who has his footing and is trying to punch you and try a wrist lock).

Is the problem with the improbable chance of catching a punch? Personally I wouldn't try a wrist lock on a guy trying to punch me, I would be waiting for him to try to grapple with me to do a wrist lock. Using it to remove his grip or get a reaction to either try to break something in his wrist, or move to a better position to have more safety and control.

But I would seriously like to hear your thoughts on why a wrist lock will not working in a bjj type situation.

[Teh El Macho]

Ok, I know the topic of this thread is JJJ vs BJJ, but since you guys are talking about JJ, I want to ask the following:

Any of you guys have any experience or know about the following?
Yoshitsune Waza / Hakko Ryu
Wushu Ryu Jitsu

I searched the forums and I couldn't find anything regarding these styles. A search on google only shows a few sites, but not what I'm looking for. Perhaps this should go into it's own thread, but since you guys are already discussing JJ in general, here it goes: I'm looking for any first-hand knowledge/impressions about them (.ie. what's the focus of each, what distinguish them, etc.)

Thanks!!!

[Shawarma]

Isn't "Wushu Ryu Jitsu" a bastardized mix of Japanese and Chinese words? Like if I had a style called karatewrestle?

[Teh El Macho]

Isn't "Wushu Ryu Jitsu" a bastardized mix of Japanese and Chinese words? Like if I had a style called karatewrestle?

That's what looks to me, but me-no-know-**** to be honest. The reason I ask is that I'm checking several schools and decide which one to join (I'm looking for a more affordable alternative than where I currently train.)

And in that search, I ran into this instructor that according to his CV, he has a background in judo, Yoshitsune Waza / Hakko Ryu, and Wushu Ryu jitsu. Everything sounded interesting until I read that part about the "wushu ryu jitsu" thing, and I don't know what to make of it. I won't mention names, but I'm just interested in knowing more... and unfortunately, nothing comes up in google.

BTW, this is what he says (I abbreviated and added spaces a bit for readibility), plus omitted a few things since I'm not confortable giving names and smear someone who may actually be legit:

Sensei <name> began Judo in 1963 ... Continued practicing in Puerto Rico a few years later, under the watchful eyes of Masayuki Takahama who had been the national team coach for Cuba.... I was introduced to Ju Jitsu while visiting a Japanese only dojo in Sao Paolo. After returning to the United States in the early 1981, I continued my Judo training and competition under Shihan Frank Payne in <state omitted>. I was able to attain my Shodan and Ni-dan ranks during those years.

At the same time, I started to study Ju Jitsu with Shihan Payne who was teaching the Yoshitsune Waza / Hakko Ryu system of O-Sensei Michael De Pasquale Sr. ... I received mi Shodan in Jujitsu in 1987 after five years of study. After receiving my Ni-Dan a couple of years later... continued to study Judo and Ju Jitsu with Shihans Preston Rosser and Gregory Fernandez.

I was awarded my San Dan ranking in Wushu Ryu Jitsu in 1993. I tested for and received my San Dan and then later Yon-Dan ranking in Yoshitsune Waza, after returning back to <stated ommited> in 1994. All of my testing and rank promotions have been done in the presence of O-Sensei and Shihan De Pasquale Jr.

[DCS]

I smell "sokeship".

De Pascuale

But there are skilled people in the CV:

Gregory Fernandez

Frank Payne

I don't know what to say. It seems "he" trained under real instructors who like amazing titles and "Hall of Fame".

I'd suggest you to ask for more info about these people in e-budo.com

[Gumby]

That argument is null and void and the reason I say that is because you cannot possibly show JJJ is more effective when they teach biting, nut shots, and eye gouges. No sport or form of competition can fully show what JJJ TRULY is. It can only show the art with some of the techniques taken out, and thats unfair.

Many of all the styles that are incorporated into mixed martial arts are not allowed to use their full extent of techniques or able to use them under optimal conditions. The very excuse you gave in regards to the Traditional Ju Jitsu is the same reason I dont hold a lot of respect for it.

People have given examples of Carlos Newton and Akiri Shoji as JJJ fighters done well- if you recall however, it wasnt the style I was criticising so much as their training methods (natrually, by adapting a training style that involves heavier contact, you'll have to exclude some techniques, such as eye gouging and biting).


What makes a martial art effective? If I were to ask you to summurize in one word what makes a martial art effective what would you say? I can tell you what comes to my mind-

ADAPTABILITY

This is the precise reason that some styles were more effective than others- they were better prepared.

A muay thai fighter is going to be more prepared for strikes on the feet than a straight karate or kung fu fighter because he knows what strikes are possible on the feet, and he knows what its like to be hit with a full bore punch to the face as well as what it means to fight through pain.

A Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter will be more prepared for grappling on the ground than a straight wrestler because of his knowledge of submission holds and practical positioning,.


Now, if (insert style here) cant work inside the ocatagon or the ring because its fighters claim its techniques are illegal, what does that say about the adaptability of the style? Basically, you're saying you only have two choices if you get involved in an altercation- kill your opponent or dont fight, but if you've never killed someone, then you've also never fought (according to that logic) therefore how can you be sure of your abilities?

Mixed martial arts tournaments put a lot of rules that afflict BJJ fighters just as well. The absence of a gi or clothing immediately puts that fighter at a disadvatage, as does time limits, strikers with padded gloves, constant standups, judges decisions, barring attacks to the back of the head and neck, etc. Despite all these restrictions, BJJ (along with many of the other styles represented in MMA) have proven quite effective and won more than their fair share of fights.

[Kraken]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious (and it's likely I am; it's all we maggots are good for), but it could be that the Japanese usage of "jujutsu" is so broad because the techniques and training methods are equally so.

On a side note, I've got a copy of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory and Technique that I'm perusing in my free time as I decide wether I'm going to take it or Judo. With Judo I have a ready training partner who was state champion, in 2003 I think, and possible "financial aid" from my grandad, a former judoka himself.

That said, I see escapes from wrist grabs demonstrated early on in this book, paired with the claim that they are common in "street attacks," usually as a preface to a flurry of punches. The same is said of lapel grabs. So maybe the wristlocks of JJJ aren't totally dead techniques, though a lapel grab likely isn't nearly as disastrous as having your sword taken away.

At any rate, all I can really do right now is submit them to the "smell test." For example, I have a hard time accepting that someone would, without preamble, try to thrust kick you in the stomach. Or that you could so neatly void, catch, re-grip and lift the kicking leg.

In the final analysis, I need to stop vaccilating and start training.